> > criteria used for the diagnosis of dependence.
> > criteria does. If one uses Alcoholics Anonymous
> > the DSM in the same manner they are not congruent.
> > From: Mitchell K.
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 12:33:00 PM
dark green trim. I was told by the photographer that it is in a gated
there. As a first avenue of approach attending a meeting in
objective would be a good approach. Failing that you could approach
the homeowner's association but I imagine they've been approached before.
records book under Chrystal. This would probably be the owner's
surname. It was Horace's uncle who I believe first name was Frank.
Please keep me informed of your progress as this is a matter of great
interest to me.
wrote:
>
> 182 Clinton St
> Brooklyn heights, NY
>
> _______________________
>
> In response to Message 3032
>
> From: "Russ S"
> Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006
> Subject: Green Pond, NJ
>
> Dear History Lovers,
>
> I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.
>
> I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they
moved to Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?
>
> Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ
>
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++++Message 3054. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 2:30:00 PM
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The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Horace C loaned them his summer cottage
or bungalow. It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125
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++++Message 3055. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: ny-aa@att.net . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:21:00 AM
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The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C
loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125
It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
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++++Message 3056. . . . . . . . . . . . Where were the Wilsons'' living?
From: Robert Stonebraker . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 2:58:00 AM
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Russ asked: "I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in
before
they moved to Stepping Stones"
Dear Russ,
Bill and Lois had to vacate there lovely home at 182 Clinton Street in
Brooklyn Hts. in April of 1939. Between then and moving into the Bedford
Hills residence they lived at nearly 50 places (P. 214 - Pass It On),
including the 24th Street Clubhouse. But at last,
in 1941, while living with friends in Chappaqua, NY, just north of the city,
they were offered, and accepted, the great deal on the Bedford Hills house
(Page 259 of "Pass It On" ).
When asked how they accomplished living so many different places, Bill
understated, "we were invited out to dinner a lot!"
The NJ Area Archives presented a great display at the Toronto International
Convention last year - this would be a great source of information for
you.
Hope this helps,
Bob S. Indiana
Dear History Lovers,
I live in a town 10 miles from Green Pond, New Jersey.
I would like to find the house Bill and Lois lived in before they moved to
Stepping Stones. Any suggestions on where to start?
Russ from Ogdensburg, NJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3057. . . . . . . . . . . . alcohol content grapevine article
From: Cheryl F . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/12/2006 5:49:00 PM
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About Alcoholism - Alcoholism Information, Research, and Treatment
What's Not Cooking? Volume 47 Issue 3
August 1990
Many of these items are contrary to AA philosophy. Their publication here
does
not mean that the Grapevine endorses or approves them; they are offered
solely
for your information.
Don't blame Julia Child for leading you astray: We all were convinced that
the
alcohol in the sherry she so liberally added to dishes would cook away, with
only the wine's flavor left behind. But now, it turns out, we can't have our
brandy and eat it too, because alcohol, as recent research reveals, has
tremendous staying power.
At the request of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, food scientist Evelyn
A.
Augustin of Washington State University in Pullman, along with her husband,
Jorg
A. Augustin of the Food Research Center at the University of Idaho in
Moscow,
recently tested six recipes to determine the fate of the alcohol called for.
Their results, reported at the latest annual meeting of the American
Dietetic
Association, were a big surprise to everyone. They found that the burgundy
in
pot roast Milano, for example, doesn't completely disappear even after two
and a
half hours of simmering on the stove; that a dish of scalloped oysters,
baked at
375 degrees for 25 minutes, retains 45 percent of the alcohol in the dry
sherry
used; that Grand Marnier sauce, which is removed from the heat when the
called-for liqueur is added, gets hot enough to lose only 15 percent of its
alcohol.
Especially surprising, though, was what happened--or didn't happen--to the
brandy in the cherries jubilee. The recipe calls for dark sweet cherries to
be
mixed with corn-starch and heated in a chafing dish to thicken. One quarter
of a
cup of brandy is then ignited in a separate pan and poured over the
cherries.
But even this intense flaming process, the Augustins discovered, burned off
no
more than 25 percent of the alcohol. They tested the recipe several times,
and
on each try the flame died, while 75 percent of the alcohol survived.
Lears
Don't listen to the people in AA; Listen to the AA in people.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3058. . . . . . . . . . . . Henrietta Seiberling''s Children
From: whanny@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 10:50:00 AM
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Does anybody know if Henrietta Seiberling's children were present when Bill
W and
Dr Bob met for the first time?
I've heard Bob Smith Jr say many times that he was the last person living
who
was present on that day, but I thought that Henrietta had a couple of small
children.
Thanks,
Whanny
____________________________
From the moderator:
I heard Henrietta Seiberling's son speak at the National Archives Workshop
at
Akron, Ohio, shortly before his death. Gail LaC., who started that series of
excellent annual workshops, could tell us the exact date.
Henrietta's son was a U.S. Representative, who went to Tip O'Neill and
enlisted
his aid in getting approval from the Russians (via backdoor unofficial
channels)
for AA people to come over and start the first AA groups in the Soviet
Union.
That was an important part of the prehistory of the establishment of AA in
Russia, which is not usually known.
Dr. Bob's son Smitty, a really fine man, lived quite a few years longer than
Henrietta's son. I am sure that at the time you heard him say he was the
last
survivor that this was in fact the case.
But I would be interested in anything the members of the group know about
Henrietta's children, because my only knowledge comes from hearing her son
speak
that one time.
Glenn C.
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++++Message 3059. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Second Tradition (long and
short)
From: Kimball . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/11/2006 6:57:00 PM
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At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the same.
Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but trusted
servants,
they do not govern" was redundant with the long form of tradition 9,
that the
phrase be dropped from the long form of tradition 2.
----- Original Message -----
From: HJFree
Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)
Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long
form?
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++++Message 3060. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children
From: Mel Barger . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 5:25:00 PM
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Hi All,
As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One
daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other
daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son,
former
Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in
AA.
I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob
met.
I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy
attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would
have
been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long
Island.
Mel Barger
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++++Message 3061. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 12:55:00 PM
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The correct name is Horace Chrystal.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3062. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: Tom Hickcox . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 7:13:00 PM
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At 23:21 1/13/2006 , ny-aa@att.net wrote:
//The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W and
Lois
lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street without even enough
money
to pay for a moving van .... Late April or early May 1939, Horace C loaned
them
his summer cottage .... It is unlikely that such a cottage would have
survived
this long.//
Not so quick, here. I would note that my family's camp on Lake
Memphremagog in Northern Vermont was bought by my grandfather when my
mother, born in 1913, was a pre-schooler, and I can tell you it is still in
excellent shape as are many of the neighboring cottages of similar vintage.
One
has to take care of them, but they are still very livable.
Tommy H in Baton Rouge
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3063. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: ricktompkins . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/14/2006 11:31:00 PM
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My family vacationed at Green Pond for generations, usually for weeks in the
summer, and from what a pre-teenager can remember, I recall that our various
rented cottages (bungalows) were built in the earliest quarter of the
twentieth
century. Old stoves, attic fans, all wooden bungalows, etc. Green Pond is
about
a mile long, shaped like a rectangle, with a large Lodge-plus-Hotel at one
end (that
building should still be standing, too, unless it burnt down since 1960...).
Most all of the cottages had no garages, just a driveway between them for
cars.
Its US Post Office looked like something out of the wild west (plenty of
fodder
for kids games), a small, single-room building that still had a horse hitch
in
front of it.
There were many single-lot homes at the water's edge around the lake's
perimeter, and most likely are now part of the 'gated' community, of course
with
updated homes.
The Lodge was a set of beautiful white Adirondack-style of buildings (think
of
green painted Adirondack chairs around a long, curved veranda) but I also
remember it as unoccupied during the summers my family rented cottages
there.
Other relatives had stayed at the Lodge in earlier times. It was one site of
many adventures that a 4 to 7-year old and his brothers could create...and
Green
Pond was where my swimming got better and I grew to love bodies of water.
Probably foreshadowed my later love of bodies of distilled spirits!
If a summer cottage that Horace provided Lois and Bill that 1939 summer was
around the same location on Green Pond, "bungalow" is a fitting
description of
something that my parents rented 15 years later.
rick t.
--- Original Message -----
From: ny-aa@att.net
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Green Pond, NJ
The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939, Horace C
loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
"Pass it On" 215 ff
"Lois Remembers" 125
It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3064. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs.
Dependence (Alcoholism)
From: Jon Markle . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 12:02:00 AM
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The entire diagnostic is about using the substance, alcohol.
The criteria you cite do not exclude the substance.
I venture to say this is one reason why untrained laypersons should not be
using
clinical works to back up their arguments. Taking out of context, one can
use
sentences from just about any form of literature to make it appear that the
entire volume says something quite the opposite of what is intended. Many
people do the same thing with the Big Book . . ..
Not only do I think your argument fails, in fact, I asked several
clinicians, some of which were responsible for writing the DSM-IV-TR, about
this
question and they were incredulous that any accredited clinician would make
such
a claim.
Jon Markle
Raleigh
> From: "Mitchell K."
> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:23:20 -0800 (PST)
> To:
> Subject: DSM-IV definitions: Abuse vs. Dependence (Alcoholism)
>
> Sorry it took so long to reply....
> Page 180 under Substance-Related Disorders in DSM IV -
> TR version is the same but I'm not sure if the page #
> is the same): (DSM IV TR web link =
> http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/subdep.htm
>
>
> Early Full Remission - This specifier is used if, for
> at least 1 month, but for less than 12 months, no
> CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been met
> (emphasis added)
>
> Sustained Full Remission - This specifier is used if
> none of the CRITERIA for Dependence or Abuse have been
> met at any time during the period of 12 months or
> longer (emphasis added)
>
> The DSM is not concerned about drinking or not
> drinking. It relates to meeting the specific criteria
> for dependence or abuse. It's not anything new....APA
> is not about abstinence as a criteria.
>
>
>
> Mitchell
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++++Message 3065. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children
From: Bob McK. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 8:53:00 AM
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John Seiberling's demise is news to me (the NE Ohio Area Archivist) and, I
think, to him. He spoke at the Sept. 25-27, 1998 Third Annual Nat'l AA
Archives
Workshop and was very much alive in April 2002 when he received an award
from
the Nat'l Park System. This copyright 2005 article speaks of him in the
present
tense:
http://www.akronworldaffairs.org/newsletter/features/seiberling.html
Cursory Googleing shows nothing more recent and I am sure his demise would.
So rumors of his demise would seem to be greatly exaggerated.
___________________________
Bob,
Profuse apologies from the moderator for passing along some very inaccurate
information. I am glad, because I heard him speak in 1998, and he is a
really
fine man, whom I greatly admire.
At least you and Mel B. caught my goof before John read it! As you said in
your
Mark Twain quote in your last line, it would have been like the famous case
where Mark Twain (still very much alive) was amazed to read his own obituary
in
a newspaper.
My wife Sue once said to me, "The problem with you, Glenn, is that you
ARE right
93% of the time." I responded to her by saying, "No, the problem
with me is the
other 7% of the time, where I end up being the last person to figure it
out."
I always ask everyone in the fellowship (and also in the AAHistoryLovers) to
remember the 7% rule at all times when you're listening to me talk. Once
more
it has been proved to be a valuable warning indeed (grin).
Glenn Chesnut
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++++Message 3066. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Long Form of Second Tradition
From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 3:21:00 PM
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I would be very interested to know where the recent contributor gained
the information that "Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do
not govern" is in the original (long) form of the Second Tradition, as
well as the original (long) form of the Ninth. On the Ninth there is
no doubt, but I really would like to see the evidence on the Second.
In the April 1946 Grapevine ("Twelve Suggested Points for AA
Tradition") the passage is not there. In "Traditions Stressed in
Memphis Talk" (October 1947 Grapevine) it is not there. In
"Tradition
Two" (January 1948 Grapevine) it is not there. In the form in
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1958), which actually dates from
(roughly) 1950, it is not there. I have found no evidence for its
inclusion in Two until the so-called short form. In all these cases
mentioned (except of course for the write-up specifically on Tradition
Two), the phrase is in Tradition Nine, as we know. I am hoping this
contribution was not merely a guess. -- Jared Lobdell
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++++Message 3067. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Second Tradition (long and
short) - (and addenda)