north of the city. In death, he rejoined his
prominent family. The large monument that defines
the Thacher plot is that of George H. Thacher, Ebby's
firm. Ebby's parents and other relatives are also
From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 8:08:00 AM
I have found written by and about Dr. Silkworth. If
you'll find 11 uses of the word. Maybe one will
he uses the word. Also, here are some definitions
and one is from 1938). Hope all this is helpful, take
it easy and God bless.
Just Love,
James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition.
quite possibly wrong.
Thanks
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++++Message 3853. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Silkworth''s Psychopath
From: corafinch . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 9:58:00 AM
different usages of the term. The earliest one the
come under the notice of medical science . . . Beside
reality from delusion. We now know that schizophrenics
assumed to be extremely dangerous.
the insane as violent and dangerous. The current
"antisocial personality disorder". This has largely
can be used.
George Fox, the founder of the Quaker religion.
for disturbing the peace. Yet, his visions were so
of a schizophrenic. James was illustrating his point
criteria. He certainly wasn't saying that Fox was evil.
Silkworth was apparently using the term "psychopath"
such as a schizophrenic might have. Nor was he
referring to antisocial personality disorder. I
available). Bipolar disorder, the
fashionable disease of our day, comes to mind.
wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> Can anybody give me the definition of Psychopath
> as it applied in the 1930s?
>
> Silkworth refers to 'the psychopath' and William
> James also in 'Varieties..,' but there is no definition.
>
> I have gleaned the term might have been used instead
> of 'neurotic', 'highly strung' or 'nutcase' but am
> quite possibly wrong.
>
> Thanks
> ________________________
>
> From the moderator:
>
> The big problem here is figuring out exactly what
> the term "psychopath" referred to in the early
> twentieth century, in other words, sixty to a
> hundred years ago.
>
> It refers TODAY to someone who shows a total moral
> blindness, who can do great harm to other people
> without feeling any moral qualms or remorse. They
> are very frightening people.
>
> But the article on psychopaths in the wikipedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
> says that the term ""was once used to denote any
> form of mental illness."
>
> So the term has changed its meaning over the years.
>
> So does anybody know enough about the history of
> psychiatry to tell us NOT what the term means today,
> BUT INSTEAD what the term meant in Silkworth's day,
> and even earlier, back when William James wrote his
> Varieties of Religious Experience at the very
> beginning of the twentieth century, over a hundred
> years ago?
>
> Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana
>
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++++Message 3854. . . . . . . . . . . . Word changes in the Big Book
From: Peter Tippett . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/9/2006 2:16:00 PM
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"Seething cauldrens of debate" can come from the most
innocuous of circumstances. In a Big Book Study while
reading page 66 from my 3rd Edition I read, "We turned
back to the list, for it held the key to the future.
We were prepared to look at it from an entirely different
angle. We began to see that the world and its people
really dominated us. In that state, the wrong-doing
of others, fancied or real, had power to actually kill.
How could we escape? We saw that these resentments
must be mastered, but how? We could not wish them away
any more than alcohol."
One of the people there said, "Whoa! My book says,
"We were prepared to look for it [not "at it"] from an
entirely different angle."
This led, of course, to a debate as to how it
changed the meaning, etc., but that is not the
purpose of my query...
I went and checked in my "library" and found the
following differences in the Edtions and Printings:
Page edit./printing Date "at" or "for"
79 1st, 11th June 1947 "at"
66 2nd, 7th 1965 "for"
66 3rd, 10th 1981 "for"
66 3rd, 56th 1996 "at"
66 4th, 14th Sept., 2004 "at"
And on the spine of the 310 th printing of the 3rd
Edition it says, "Third Edition: New and Revised."
New and Revised?
I just have a curiosity as to any information
surrounding the "at" vs. "for" and the "New and
Revised."
Anyone?
Thank you,
Pete Tippett
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++++Message 3855. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Eddie R. ("Eddie the atheist"?)
From: Tommy . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/11/2006 2:34:00 PM
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I heard Dr Bob`s son,Smitty speak once and he talked
about "Eddie R." In Sue`s and Smitty`s book,Children
of the Healer on page 41, Sue gives a account of
Eddie but it does not mention whether he was an
atheist or not. I did run across a few interesting
facts about Eddie as told first by Sue,and then Smitty.
Sue -- page 41:
Eddie R was their first try at sobering up someone
after Dr Bob got sober. He would shimmie down the
drainpipe and run off and get drunk. He even chased
Anne with a butcher knife once. He had a wife and
several kids at the time. He blacked his wife`s eyes
once while staying at Dr Bob's house. She remembers
how disapointed her Dad and Bill was when Eddie
didn`t want it...
Smitty remembers Eddie R with this account from
page 147:
Eddie was locked in a bedroom and Eddie would slide
down a drainpipe and get drunk. They captured him
several times,and one day he escaped and called them
from Cleveland and said he was going to commit
sucide. He wanted to give them time to get there and
be witnesses. He ate a tuna sandwich once at
Dr. Bob's and he had a allergy to tuna, and he grabbed
a butcher knife and chased Anne around.They finally
took him back to Ann Arbor and had him recommitted
to the mental institution. He later was discovered
to have a underlying mental condition of some kind.
When Dr Bob passed,Eddie showed up for his funeral,
and said he was sober one year and a member of the
Youngstown group.
Tommy
- - -
See AAHL message #3845 from "man_dred"
(man_dred at yahoo.co.uk)
>
> There was another atheist named Eddie R. who Dr. Bob
> and Bill worked with throughout the summer of 1935.
> (Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers, pp.77 -79)
>
> He was not well known and there was not much
> written about this Eddie. He was from Cleveland/Akron
> area. They gave up on him and had their first success
> with Bill Dotson.
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++++Message 3856. . . . . . . . . . . . History of the meaning of the term
psychopath
From: Glenn Chesnut . . . . . . . . . . . . 11/13/2006 3:35:00 PM
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"David Johnson"
(crescentdave at yahoo.com) has sent a reference
to an extremely useful historical account of the
development of the concept of the psychopath:
http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf
This article should be read carefully by anyone who
wants to investigate what the word psychopath meant
at various points in the twentieth century. We need
to observe when the word was being used in order to
understand what it meant to the author. In particular,
THE TERM PSYCHOPATH HAD A MAJOR CHANGE IN MEANING
AROUND 1941.
- - -
1890-1902: William James, The Varieties of Religious
Experience, was based on lectures given in 1901-1902.
He wrote his famous book on the Principles of
Psychology a decade earlier, in 1890.
1939: William Duncan Silkworth, M.D., (1873?-1951)
was Director of the Charles B. Towns Hospital for
Drug and Alcohol Addictions in New York City in the
1930s, during which time Bill Wilson was admitted on
various occasions for alcoholism. Silkworth had a
profound influence on Wilson and introduced him to
the idea that alcoholism had a pathological, disease-
like basis. Silkworth wrote the chapter titled "The
Doctor's Opinion" in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous"
which came out in 1939.
THEN COMES THE SHIFT IN THE MEANING OF THE WORD PSYCHOPATH
1940's: The other three major early AA authors did
not begin writing until the 1940's, by which time
the meaning of the term psychopath had changed:
Ed Webster, The Little Red Book, 1946
Ralph Pfau (Father John Doe), first Golden Book, 1947
Richmond Walker, Twenty-Four Hours a Day, 1948
1950: Marty Mann, Primer on Alcoholism, 1950.
An important historical source for information
about AA ideas at that time, as they were being
disseminated to the general public; this is an
important source (which has not been utilized
nearly as much as it ought) for understanding one
the major strands of early AA thought. Anyone who
is going to write a real history of early AA has
to include Marty and her friends, including not
only the people who helped Marty put out the
Grapevine during its first few years, but also
Sgt. Bill S. (the major spokesman for the
psychologically-oriented wing of early AA) and
Nancy Olson, who was the founder of the AAHistoryLovers
and the author of "With a Lot of Help from Our
Friends" (describing AA in the 1970's).
- - -
Meanwhile, over the course of the past two centuries,
the concept of the psychopath was undergoing various
shifts in meaning. The following is taken from a table
in http://ijo.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/45/3/325.pdf
1812 -- Rush -- moral alienation of the mind, total
perversion of the moral faculties
1835 -- Prichard -- moral insanity, deplorable defect
in personality, no volitional control, which should be
a legal defense
1891 -- Koch -- psychopathic inferiority, a congenital
(inborn) personality type -- the prognosis depends
on whether it is chronic or temporary
1897 -- Maudsley -- moral imbecility, characteristic
of a criminal class affected by cerebral deficits,
however it is useless to punish those who cannot
control their behavior
1904 -- Krafft-Ebing -- morally depraved, savages
in society -- the prognosis is that they cannot be
helped at all, and must be confined to asylums
indefinitely
1915 -- Kraepelin -- psychopathic personalities,
they are the most vicious and wicked, born criminal,
liars, swindlers -- prognosis is poor
1941 -- Cleckley -- the psychopath is a detached,
narcissistic interpersonal style -- prognosis is poor
- - -
WITH THANKS TO DAVID JOHNSON FOR SENDING US THIS:
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006
From: "David Johnson"
Subject: Historical Note on Psychopathology
I hope this proves useful to you. If I can be of
any further service, please let me know. I'm happy
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