JOHANNESBURG - Chris Walker, the mastermind behind the R800m Defencex scheme has likened the insurance industry and the banks to Ponzi schemes, while admitting that his battles with the Reserve Bank (SARB) could never have been won.
He also claims not to have profited from his embattled business and suggests that the accounts linked to Net-Income-Solutions were frozen to protect the profit seeking interests of the banks and to allow liquidators and attorneys a slice of the R349m pie.
This was revealed in extensive discussions with Moneyweb which ranged from the new schemes and training seminars being promoted by Walker, to his views on Defencex.
Despite repeated attempts by Moneyweb to contact Walker he has thus far never spoken to the media about his controversial scheme or his court battles.
I approached Walker as an interested investor in the network marketing scheme MyFunLife (MFL).
Walker has been promoting the scheme, which bears a close resemblance to a classical pyramid scheme, through his blog
www.wealth4africa.com.
After registering to join MFL through Wealth4Africa, I received an email from Walker inviting me to call should I have any questions.
So I did.
On network marketing
Q: The amounts that MFL suggest can be made are huge, is this offer not a little too good to be true?
Walker: “You have to work hard, it won’t just happen if you don’t do anything … if you want to earn money you are going to have to refer people and grow a team and in that way it is not too good to be true because it takes a lot of effort.
“Theoretically it is very easy but it is a matter of finding the right people … it’s not like you are going to go out there and find hundreds of people immediately because most people are sceptical and … think it is too good to be true but it is not because you actually have to work.
He later added that “I have been doing it (network marketing) for 13 years and I still find it difficult (to train people) to go out there and create a team that works.”
“People that join through me usually know what to do … they are people that know me and that trust me and that do it full time, some of them have made more money than me… this is how they make their money.”
However, Walker warned that network marketing “is not fun” and he would not advise it as a business venture for “beginners.”
Q: MFL seems very similar to a pyramid scheme. There seems to be a fine line between a pyramid and a Network Marketing Scheme (NMS)?
Walker: “there is no such thing (as a pyramid) … Clientele life is an SA company that has been going for years; it works exactly the same way (as a NMS or pyramid) except their product is insurance … you pay a monthly fee and then you earn down the line from other people paying insurance.
“To my mind insurance is a scam…they take one person’s money to pay another person … the banks are the same, there is no difference.
“But that is just my take on it.”
Q: To me it seems like a pyramid, so if I get in early can I make more money?
Walker: “It does not matter how young the company is. You can go and join a company that is ten years old and still make money. It is a matter of what you do … that is why I am in the business of trying to open help and support centres for my members so that if they find people to introduce to the scheme we can show them what to do.”
He added that “the market I deal with is mostly black … I like to deal with them because they are not sceptical, they are open and they understand sharing …”
Q: Did you target the poorer communities because they would be less sceptical?
Walker: “no, no, no. I don’t go anywhere and talk to people, I just have a website and people trust me and if they know me they will join … I don’t specifically deal with poor people.
“It is not about that, I am not interested in trying to convince people to join, it is their choice … they go onto the website and they join so it is really up to them.”
On Kipi
Q: I had initially been interested in Kipi, how does that work?
Walker: “With Kipi it is a matter of showing people how to do it … it works like a stokvel. Stokvels are legal in SA … you don’t pay to Kipi or to a bank account its people helping others out.”
Q: Stokvels don’t generate profits, is it the same then with Kipi?
Walker: “no you can (make a profit), it depends on if you introduce people and if you want your dream to be fulfilled it depends how much you put towards it … it is terrific, it has been working for years.”
On Defencex
Q: What happened with Defencex, it seems like guys lost a lot of money?
Walker: “Well the only reason they have lost money is because the Reserve Bank closed the bank accounts … SARB did not like people to be able to make money because they rely on debt, the banks make money from debt.
“And 200 000 people not doing business with them anymore … this is about the (lost) money, it has nothing to do with the system.
“I know the facts; my lawyers know the facts … (they were concerned that) people where taking their money out of bank accounts and out of investments,” and that is why they got involved.
“I am still with the people who made money and [they] understand. The Reserve Bank closed the banks accounts, they must decide what to do with the money.
“I am not going to win against SARB - that is impossible.”
Q: The scheme was R800m. I read that you had only directed R20m to yourself – that doesn’t seem like a lot?
Walker: “I didn’t take R20m that is a lie, that money was going to be used to buy a brand new office block - everybody knows that but they still twist the truth around. I am very angry about that.
“They say I transferred R20m to my personal bank account, I did not, that money was sent to (inaudible) it was a brand new office block that was going to be used as a HQ”.
“We paid out R370m; there was still R349m in the bank account. It is just too much money, they just want their slice. They are going to take millions and millions in fees … the liquidators are going to get their fees, the attorneys are going to get their fee. That is why they are doing it, to get at the money.”
Q: What are the similarities between Defencex and MFL?
Walker: “My business was never an investment in the first place, everybody says it was an investment, everybody says it was 2% a day but nowhere on my website did I ever state it was an investment … people just make up their own things.
“MFL is totally different; it works in a completely different way (to Defencex).”
“Defencex was revenue sharing …traditional network marketing pays out to up ten levels, they don’t advertise so they take the advertising budget and they give it to the members … what they do is take it as a profit and divide by up to ten levels.
“What my business did, was take that profit and divide it by everybody and give them a small little fraction of that so everybody got a piece of the action. So even if you were not part of that team you still got a piece of it.
“In MFL only ten people got paid, in my fund everybody got paid, people don’t get that, they don’t understand it … everybody shared in the daily profit, not just a certain number of people, it was not very much but it was something.”
Q: But was that money generated from recruiting new members?
Walker: “No, there was a product, the product was computer training, personal development and emotional freedom workshops … you were buying points to attend the workshops.
“Those businesses already existed, we were outsourcing, like time share.”
On the future
Q: What do you think the future holds in terms of the SARB case?
Walker: “I am not going to win the case, it is over. They are not going to let me carry on. There is just too much money involved. But I knew that four months ago, so I was not expecting to win.”
Q: Are you worried?
Walker: “there is no point in worrying, they will do whatever they want … luckily I still have people on my side that understand, those that know me will understand.
“They may prosecute me but they have to do that to make it seem like I am the bad one not them… They will tell you that they are trying to protect people but they don’t care about that.
“Anyway, I better not say too much, they listen to all my conversations.
“They think I am the biggest criminal in SA at the moment.”
Walker has not responded to requests to comment on a draft of this article.
However, following those requests he posted the following on his Facebook page:
"We have received some inside information that certain media organizations are paid to distort the facts (lie) and discredit any system that helps people to earn money to reduce/eliminate their debts.
Their objective is to keep the masses poor and dependent on the control system.
What is the control system?
It is the system designed to enslave you by making you rely on money/debt to survive.
Why do we allow this?
Acquiescence - acceptance without protest."
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Johannesburg – “I’m not going to win against the Reserve Bank - that is impossible.”
This is the view of Chris Walker, the mastermind behind the R800m Defencex scheme.
Walker made this statement during an exclusive interview with Moneyweb, which ranged from the new schemes and training seminars he is promoting to his views on Defencex.
Defencex is the latest scheme to hit the headlines, after the Western Cape High Court on February 28 ordered its Standard Bank account to be frozen because of the company's deposit-taking activities.
In terms of the Banks Act, only banks, collective investment schemes and brokers through a brokerage account are authorised to take deposits.
Moneyweb earlier reported that the Reserve Bank had asked auditors PwC to investigate whether Defencex, Cycle4Dollars, Net Income Solutions and Walker were contravening the Banks Act.
According to affidavits, large sums of money were deposited into the accounts of Net Income Solutions, none of which were reinvested by Walker.
Still no returns on invested amounts
Defencex punted itself as an online investment company that allows you to "grow your profits by learning to compound your daily profits".
It promised investors about 2% per day on investments of five months' duration, subject to a complicated points-based assessment system. They could enhance these returns by earning commission on the amounts invested by people they in turn introduced to the scheme.
Investors have no clue when they will see any of their money.
The last post on June 25 on the Defecex website stated: "The interim order made on 28 February 2013 was made final and confirmed today. In other words the Registrar of Banks still has control over the money. So nothing has changed.
"We still have to wait until the investigation is finalised. We do not know when that will be."
Analysts said the signs were clear for investors not to buy into a scheme like Defencex.
“Every time a scheme is exposed, people go through something similar to the normal five phases of loss – disbelief, anger, fear, negotiation, and then a very distant acceptance or resigning themselves to the loss,” said Daryl Ducasse, investor activist and member of Merkurius Capital Solutions.
Answering questions on the loss people suffered from investing in Defencex, Walker told Moneyweb: “The only reason they have lost money is because the Reserve Bank closed the bank accounts … Sarb did not like people to be able to make money because they rely on debt… the banks make money from debt.
“They think I am the biggest criminal in SA at the moment,” said Walker.
He likened the insurance industry and the banks to Ponzi schemes, while admitting that his battles with the Reserve Bank could never have been won.
He also claimed not to have profited from his embattled business and suggested that the accounts linked to Net Income Solutions were frozen to protect the profit-seeking interests of the banks, and to allow liquidators and attorneys a slice of the R349m pie.
Pyramid scheme accusations
According to Moneyweb, Walker, 46, is no stranger to controversy. His previous scheme, Gold Charity Fund Investments, was reportedly declared an unfair business practice back in 2002.
Walker was accused of operating a pyramid scheme which abused the name and image of former president Nelson Mandela.
Walker went on to say: “I’m still with the people who made money and [they] understand.
“The Reserve Bank closed the banks accounts… they must decide what to do with the money.
“I’m not going to win against Sarb - that is impossible.”
Referring to Defencex, he said: "The company was about revenue sharing… traditional network marketing pays out up to ten levels, they don’t advertise so they take the advertising budget and they give it to the members…"
Ducasse said he doubted whether Defencex members will ever see their money again.
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