Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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| It's fair game to talk about whether alcoholics involved in AA history
(including those who were not AA members, but with whom we were in contact, like Ebby Thacher and Rowland Hazard, and the people involved in the Jacoby Club, which heavily influenced early Boston AA) were able to find a solution to their drinking problem, either IN or OUT of AA.
well some of the other systems worked in fact (like the Oxford Group, the Emmanuel Movement and Jacoby Club, and Peabody's method) to see why the early AA people decided to discard some of the principles involved in those other groups. Otherwise, we would NOT be honest historians, and would in fact be running a shill for AA. At that point, someone else wrote in and said, don't say things like that about Peabody if you can't prove it, otherwise it's the worst kind of malicious gossip mongering.
had to admit that he was stating something that he did not know for a one hundred per cent guaranteed fact, although there was some significant supporting evidence. So our AA historians have been checking that question out, simply to establish what the facts were here. And the answer at this point seems to be that we cannot know all of the facts surrounding Peabody's last days for sure, and that there may in fact have even been ameliorating circumstances (medical doctors sometimes prescribed small amounts of alcohol for heart patients in that period of history, as they did for my grandfather, who was not an alcoholic, during his last years, which was during the 1950's). So it is unfortunate that we cannot necessarily come up with a one hundred percent guaranteed answer to this particular question, but that is the nature of all real historical research. Not all historical questions can be answered with one hundred percent certainty. A good professional historian has to know, not only what we DO know for a fact, but what we do NOT know for an absolute fact. Nevertheless, we CAN say that we do not have much (if any) reliable data supporting the assertion that the Peabody method was a very workable method of dealing with alcoholism. And we can say that, in spite of the popularity of his book among the general public at that time, it wasn't going to be a real winner when it came to effectively dealing with the problem of alcoholism in the United States (where it was then, and still is, the third leading cause of death). That's why nobody tries to use the Peabody method any more. My own very rough observations are that, out of all the alcoholics whom I have known who obtained a five year survival rate (five years of unbroken sobriety), around 1% did that by will power alone (essentially the Peabody method), around 1% did that by going to a conservative evangelical church and reading the Bible and praying to Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and the other 98% get sober in AA. More alcoholics by far get sober in AA than by any other way, but I know of no sensible observer (including all of the people who regularly contribute to this web group) who would deny that the other two methods also sometimes work. At the present stage of research, it seems clear that Peabody's book, in spite of the fact that it was very widely read and very popular for a while, stopped being read and used because it simply didn't work very well, if at all. And the evidence surrounding Peabody's drinking during his own last years gives us at least no unambiguous evidence that the system worked for him either. On the basic issue, the fact is that almost nothing in the AA program was totally invented by the early AA people themselves. Almost everything in the AA program originally came from somewhere else, and had been said by somebody else before. So a decent history of early AA will be forced to write about the earlier attempts to deal with alcoholism in the United States from which the early AA people learned either (a) good ideas which they could borrow or (b) bad ideas which they needed to leave out of their new AA program if they wanted it to be as successful as possible.
but to write at least a little about things like the Oxford Group; the Emmanuel Movement and the Jacoby Club; Rowland Hazard and Carl Jung; Peabody's book; neo-Freudian psychiatrists like Adler; representatives of the New Thought movement like Emmet Fox and James Allen ( http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html ); and other ideas and movements of the early twentieth century.
had an effect on the way early AA people thought and believed. But those members of the group who are not interested in these things, and who want to focus solely on working out the dates and facts surrounding the lives of early AA members and early AA publications, should just delete these messages about the background to early AA. That's the advantage of being in a web group, as opposed to having to sit through a long conference, when one of the speakers spends a half hour ranting about something you aren't the slightest bit interested in (and anyway, you don't LIKE the jerk, he's obnoxious). Hit the delete button! But there is NO WAY that anyone could post messages for a group of over 1400 people all around the world, and guarantee that each individual member will NEVER see a message posted that he or she finds uninteresting (grin). Heck, I've seen strings of messages posted on this web site on certain occasions on things that I personally thought were unbelievably pedantic and boring, but some of the other members of the group found that topic fascinating, and since they are members of the group in good standing, they have their rights too.
worn copy of "As Bill Sees It: The A.A. Way of Life ... selected writings of A.A.'s cofounder" (23rd printing, 1989) there is a long list of reading on the topic of "tolerance" for other members of the program, warts and all (grin). Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana) Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3684. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: First World Conference transcripts From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:01:00 PM
Bill's address entitled "We Come of Age" Cleveland July 28-30,1950 by Bill
anyone wants it I will mail it to you( free of charge) if you will provide me with your address or if you e-mail me and I'll scan it and e-mail it to you. Freely given and freely received. Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: Please e-mail Mike directely at the above e-mail address. We don't have a "forward" button on the Yahoo group system Pending Message board, which means that otherwise, I have to copy out your message and then paste it in Notepad, and then copy it out a second time and put it in an e-mail from me to that person, which makes things unnecessarily complicated. Thanks! Back to Mike's message.] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This puts a price on them. I am against making money off our history. It makes for the legitimate AA repositories being excluded because we ask for donations and many are unwilling to turn over our history to us when the almighty dollar is concerned.
restricting information/or access to AA members. Any donated AA history should be available to any alcoholic. No one should have the right to restrict its use(only exception is if the person who donates it restricts its use). Going soon to Baton Rouge, Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3685. . . . . . . . . . . . 1st International Conference From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:27:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I have a tentative program and flyer from that historic conference. It is interesting to note that the flyer indicates that it was being "sponsored by the pioneer groups ... Akron, New York, and Cleveland" ( I didn't know those three cities were referred to in that way.) Registration was $1.50 and banquet tickets were $5.00. For baseball tickets, reserved seats were $1.50 and box seats $2.00.
snowballing into what, from all present indications, will prove to be the most important events in all AA history." (I guess that Bill meeting with Dr Bob was the second most important date in AA history?) Yours in Service, (Still on the way to Baton Rouge and then California, Oregon, and Washington) Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3686. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Why no amends to family on page 76?
From: CBBB164@AOL.COM . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2006 8:12:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Amends to the family are emphasized in the first paragraph on page 83 as well as in other sections of our Basic Text.
Home - (214) 350-1190 Cell - (214) 532-5371 FAX - (214) 350-1190 CBBB164@aol.com www.ppgaadallas.org _______________________________________
cmpvandango@yahoo.co.uk writes: Steps Eight and Nine, making amends: Big Book 4th edition pg 76 chapter "Into Action." "Probably there are still some misgivings. As we look over the list of business acquaintances and friends we have hurt, we feel diffident about going to some of them on a spiritual basis....." My home group has a question regarding the above paragraph and have asked for the AA History lovers' views and opinions. Why in this paragraph is there no mention made of making amends to members of our families whom we may have harmed?
parts of the world, the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham is in England, located in the County of Greater London on the eastern side. Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3687. . . . . . . . . . . . Jimmy B. Grapevine Article (1968) From: Bill Lash . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/6/2006 11:24:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Sober for Thirty Years One of the earliest members of the first New York AA group, he was also its first "self-proclaimed atheist"
into the
Fellowship in New York in January, 1938. At that time it was just leaving the Oxford Group. There was one closed discussion meeting a week, at Bill's home in Brooklyn - attendance six or eight men, with only three members who had been sober more than one year: Bill, Hank, and Fritz. This is about all that had been accomplished in the four years with the New York Oxford Group.
or procedure to guide them, though they did use quite a few of the Oxford sayings and the Oxford Absolutes. Since both Bill and Dr. Bob had had almost-overnight religious experiences, it was taken for granted that all who followed their way would have the same sort of experience. So the early meetings were quite religious, in both New York and Akron. There was always a Bible on hand, and the concept of God was all biblical.
atheist, completely against all religions and conventions. I was the captain of my own ship. (The only trouble was, my ship was completely disabled and rudderless.) So naturally I started fighting nearly all the things Bill and the others stood for, especially religion, the "God bit." But I did want to stay sober, and I did love the understanding Fellowship. So I became quite a problem to that early group, with my constant haranguing against all the spiritual angles.
five whole months while fighting everything the others stood for. I was now number four in "seniority." I found out later they had a prayer meeting on "what to do with Jim." The consensus seemed to have been that they hoped I
would either leave town or get drunk. That prayer must have been right on target, for I was suddenly taken drunk on a sales trip. This became the shock and the bottom I needed. At this time I was selling auto polish to jobbers for a company that Bill and Hank were sponsoring, and I was doing pretty well, too. But despite this, I was tired and completely isolated there in Boston. My fellow alcoholics really put the pressure on as I sobered up after four days of no relief, and for the first time I admitted I couldn't stay sober alone. My closed mind opened a bit. Those folks back in New York, the folks who believed, had stayed sober. And I hadn't. Since this episode I don't think I have ever argued with anyone else's beliefs. Who am I to say? I finally crawled back to New York and was soon back in the fold. About this time, Bill and Hank were just beginning to write the AA Big Book. I do feel sure my experience was not in vain, for "God" was broadened to cover all types and creeds: "God as we understood Him."
gradual and steady. I have no desire to "graduate" from AA. I try to keep my memories green by staying active in AA - a couple of meetings weekly. For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery: The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn. The AA Fellowship became my higher power for the first two years. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were to be found in all of us. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better Self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady. J.B. San Diego, California AA Grapevine, May 1968
significant dates From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/7/2006 9:45:00 AM
date for our Significant September Dates in AA History. One thing that I believe might be even more historically significant occurred in 1957. The first overseas General Service Board of AA in Great Britain and Ireland was established. It's a huge milestone in the history of the "internationalization" of the General Service Structure and national autonomy. See AA Comes of Age pg ix - it gives the year but not the month. Perhaps our Archives friends in the UK can find out the specific date when the UK/Ireland board was chartered. Cheers Arthur
On Behalf Of Bristol Fashion Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 Subject: Significant September dates in A.A. History
Sally Cousins Archivist
From: Shakey1aa@aol.com . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/5/2006 10:14:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Is anyone familiar with APOAR(Applied Principles of Alcoholic Recovery) by Robert Emmett Rack and if it is still being used in Prisons and Institutions?
has written and wonder about its success. Shakey Mike Gwirtz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3690. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: 1st International Conference From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 9/9/2006 9:46:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Mike The program for the event (see one of the pages attached) also describes Cleveland as "the birthplace of our movement."
the Cleveland Group was the first to use the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe itself.
Bill W was using the term "Alcoholics Anonymous" to describe the Fellowship nearly a year prior to Clarence using it and well before the Cleveland Group was started (it started shortly after the Big Book was published). Clarence also liked to call himself the "founder" of AA.
Arthur
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 1:27 AM From: Shakey1aa@aol.com (Shakey1aa at aol.com) Subject: 1st International Conference
historic conference. It is interesting to note that the flyer indicates that it was being "sponsored by the pioneer groups ... Akron, New York, and Cleveland" (I didn't know those three cities were referred to in that way.) Registration was $1.50 and banquet tickets were $5.00. For baseball tickets, reserved seats were $1.50 and box seats $2.00.
rapidly snowballing into what, from all present indications, will prove to be the most important events in all AA history." (I guess that Bill meeting with Dr Bob was the second most important date in AA history?) Yours in Service, (Still on the way to Baton Rouge and then California, Oregon, and Washington) Shakey Mike Gwirtz ___________________________________
over "who was right" and "who was wrong." As AA historians, we need to observe that there was a major struggle within AA at one point in the late 1940's and early 1950's, with a small but very determined group of AA leaders struggling to remove Bill Wilson and his close associates in New York City from their position of dominance over the AA movement.
Royal F. Shepard, and others were involved in this AA "Orthodox Movement" during that time period.
that period, were directed towards countering their influence. From Bill W.'s perspective, the greatest peril which AA was in at that point, was the danger of being fragmented into a number of warring regional centers, including not only Cleveland but also Texas, each one claiming to be the proper place to serve as the international headquarters and center of the worldwide movement. Bill W. was afraid that this was going to produce a number of different warring AA "sects" instead of a single AA fellowship, with a single coherent basic philosophy and set of organizational principles, for the entire world.
(and people in many other parts of the U.S. and Canada) were being allowed little or no input into the discussions among the little circle of people in New York City who were making most of the decisions at that time. From the viewpoint of the Orthodox Movement, it also seemed necessary to make clear that New York City was not Rome, Bill W. was not the Pope, and the people at the New York AA office did not get to wear red robes like the Cardinals in the Vatican.
send Delegates to New York City was one of the ideas that were subsequently developed to deal with some of the legitimate complaints of the Orthodox Movement. The system of moving the Internationals around to different parts of the U.S. and Canada every time they were held was another response to AA people in places like Ohio and Texas who were getting ready to take matters into their own hands, if no one took their objections to over-centralization seriously. Instead of getting over-diverted into disputes over who first came up with the idea of calling the movement "Alcoholics Anonymous," and why Bill W. was the only major AA leader who did not work for a living at an outside job, it is necessary to remember the more important issues involved in that set of historical disputes, which were very important in the historical evolution of early AA. The issues of local autonomy vs. central control within the AA structure are still very much alive today, and high feelings and angry words can still explode quickly. The fundamental philosophical issues involved in the dispute raised by the Orthodox Movement in the 1940's and 50's were real ones -- looking at what happened back then is not just a study of the dead past. For those who wish to know more about the Orthodox Movement, Mitchell K. (author of "How It Worked: The Story of Clarence H. Snyder and the Early Days of Yüklə 13,83 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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