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718 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:11pm Subject: RE: Your Privacy Elnora ~ Are all the emails in e-group (other groups) archived so anyone can access them? BD I was mistaken that the messages (Archives, eGroup calls them messages) in my group are public. I have it set for members only. What I saw in Yahoo when I searched there was that what I had shared in another eGroup was there in their messages (Archives), so yes, they are public if their moderator chooses it so. I will continue to keep them private for now. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:31pm Subject: A revelation > Hi Ellie, > after my last post about feeling like I'd had a flood experience - you suggested I go back to the literature which I have and I now believe what I experienced was the 'flood'. > > I think I said to you that I hadn't been redirecting but that wasn't true - I think I had without realizing it - since it was all mental. I believe my thought patterns shifted. Since that experience of the most intense pain and grief I have ever felt a series of things have happened. Firstly I've had the flu badly, lost my voice and had high fevers. I've also had heaps of headaches. I now realize this is part of the process. I've also decided that I plan to do what's best for me in my relationship and have told my husband that - whether he is included in my life plan is something I am yet to decide (since up till now he's been making the decisions). And lastly, I was at my parents recently and Dad told me he thought I looked better than I had in ages and my therapy has gone ahead leaps and bounds over the past 3 weeks. So, I think I'm part way there... I hope to have further good news in a few more weeks. EJ I'm so glad to hear this. Don't forget that post flood is not a sudden cure, and you may find you have more detox crises during which you will have to redirect. But crises should be less intense and less often. In time your anger, when triggered, will have less and less to do with past abusers and more to do with current interactions. It will be important not to stuff anger in current interactions or toxicosis can develop again and cause future symptoms. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 720 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 8:49am Subject: Relationships post flood Some of you asked whether relationships survive when only one partner becomes post flood. Here are some comments from Lynn. She was post flood around June 1999 and had a second child in May 2000. Please excuse the formatting, I can't seem to get rid of the spaces and have to give up trying. If anyone knows how to do this without effort let me know. Ellie > > > Hubby's doing strange: he's starting to have lots of anger piling up w/o many outlets to it, since I don't do quarrels or arguments or uproar any more. Sometimes he forces me into one, or puts me in a situation where I break down and do a lot of crying - it's like I'm detoxing for him, very similarly to what I do for my children, although it's heavier to bear because it's not natural to have to do this for another grown-up person and also because he doesn't understand a thing in there neither is able to trust his body like a child so I have to accept transference and carry his feelings of guilt in his place. A tough job but made better by me knowing what and why I do. On the other hand I'm not so sure what the outcome will be b/c he's starting to have a hard time keeping things repressed: watching TV used to be his main pain-killing drug, but nowadays since we don't clash so often anymore he can't always justify spending hours mute in front of the TV set, so as a result of his anger/grief load piling up his sleep has become quite disrupted and unrefreshing Besides, I'm glad to say I think he's fond of me beyond co-dependency and we may have a chance to overcome the change. > > > > > > I still hope he's going to discover what a detox means, maybe when my elder sister will be post-flood and it will start to show, or maybe seeing my baby growing up he'll get ready to read Solter. He opened her book Tears and Tantrums the other day and read about the habit of over-rocking or bouncing babies and I saw how quick he was to identify with doing it wrong instead of being able to see how far he's good at it. Whenever we're talking about something that is not entirely good or bad, but which is good until it gets overdone, I see he's very quick at getting himself classified as "wrong doing". If he's doing something, then he must think he's doing it badly. His bad opinion of himself, his low self-esteem and his low assessment of his performances, that is what I have to work on first if I want him to get ready to hear the truth about growing up. My brother-in-law and my hub have that thing in common: they both where brought-up in families where there were obvious highly important worries that disqualified the emotional world of children: lack of money, untimely death of a parent - all circumstances that made up a climate of "hush" and a strong urgency to repress feelings of frustration, pain, grief, etc...because every adult around was under too much pressure to handle a child's anger. > > > > > > I agree with whoever thinks it's really difficult to maintain a previously co-dependent relationship after you get post-flood, and I would preach for a thorough assessment of the gain/loss balance of such a relationship to continue. I would not bet high on our relationship to have been sustained hadn't we had a young child, mainly because I might have considered sparing myself the enormous emotional energy it is taking. It is not easy to assess how much of the relationship is made of co-dependent reciprocal attraction and how much is genuine fondness. What can be reassuring is to think that if the relationship breaks, it is because there was not enough material of the second kind in there. Lynn http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety
Your advice on directing my anger toward my parent's "sickness," instead of at them personally, has been extremely helpful. I am finding it easier and easier to redirect, and I am now discovering a whole range of other past abusers (like the mental health system folks) toward whom to direct the anger. I am also discovering more and more opportunities for redirection; first, because I am becoming more adept at identifying detox crises (I no longer think there is anything wrong with ME when I feel emotional symptoms), and second, because I believe the flooding has begun! I say this with great satisfaction but also some apprehension, because it looks like we're in for a rough ride. The upside of the rough ride, is, of course, that I only have to go through it ONCE!!!!! No more years of misery!!! This is the thought that I hang onto like a rare jewel. I also wanted to mention that I got a taste of that euphoria that people talk about. It happened yesterday, after a particularly intense session of redirecting. At first I was drained and exhausted, as I have been every time, but then that euphoria began to seep in until I felt that I must have been visibly glowing! I am withdrawing from psychiatric medications, with the support of a very knowledgeable friend, as I am going through this process. Redirecting is THE most effective tool for dealing with the more difficult withdrawal symptoms: I simply picture those people in the "helping professions" who have been feeding me these drugs and telling me I am defective for so many years. I have no trouble at all connecting with that particular anger!! I look eagerly for your postings several times a day. They are a source of great support and hope. Thanks also to your new co-moderator (I can't remember his initials), who wrote a particularly articulate post recently that I have passed on to a friend. MK Hi, thanks for sending your progress, sounds like your misery will soon be over. The new co-moderator is Tom, we used MT for him for a while, who posted the Hurricane Detox a while ago. I hope you will read this in the Archives, (eGroup calls them Messages) to see that it doesn't have to be the rough ride you expect as long as you are redirecting. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 6:16pm Subject: A flood of anger Sorry folks please forgive me,.... there is alot of talk in this group about flooding... can someone explain please??? ED > Don't apologize, it's a good question, and I'll try to explain. In trying to describe what happens in the brain with the toxicosis, I used the analogy of a flood. It is not totally accurate, but the best I could do. When anger is suppressed, toxic amounts of neurochemicals accumulate in the neurons in the brain. It is like there is a flood of anger in the brain because it is when these neurochemicals are released that one expresses anger. It's really more like a reservoir of anger, created by the damming up of emotions, and during each detox crisis, it's like the opening of some flood gates. This is why people speak of a flooding experience. Ellie 723 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 1, 2000 7:38pm Subject: Re: A flood of anger How does one (adult) go about releasing or 'unclogging' the anger that is suppressed over a good period of years...like issues pertaining to family of origin..a dysfunctional family upbringing. How can all this anger be 'drained' ?...or can it be? ES Keep reading the article, The Biology of Emotions, to see how to release and redirect anger. Print it out from a pdf file on my site, and print out the Welcome message and study these. You will see how to use the self-help measures. You don't have to remember all the details of your dysfunctional upbringing, but you will need to release and redirect anger toward past abusers during periodic detox crises, which manifest as excitatory nervous symptoms. The anger will be drained as you say, over a period of time during these detox crises. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 724 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 10:33am Subject: Depersonalization dear ellie, > thanks for the two articles. The link on messages seems to have become active again. I am not an alcoholic. I am a student aged 26. studying in NY. Unfortunately due to my depersonalization/derealization episodes I have become so anxious, confused and feel like I've lost my mind. Ellie, you have not listed depersonalization etc as a sickness that can be put to rest, but I believe that since it is due to anxiety it will also get cured. I have also started redirecting my anger. > > As of now I have taken a break from my studies to do something about this problem. If you are willing to listen and could offer me advice here is my story: > > I have been a very intelligent student all my life. My mother really wanted me to do well in life and boy I was all out to do it. I really studied very hard, though I never felt satisfied with the effort that I put in. I went through high school topping my class all the way. I stood first in school too. But my success was largely due to my mothers forcing and coaxing. I joined a university to study engineering. I was doing very well but I never really felt satisfied. At the same time I was also thoroughly dissatisfied with my social life. I was brought up very religiously. I think as a result I did not like fun and avoided it. I went through school, college with very few friends. But I would ruminate a lot at home, read a lot of self-help books. In my second year of engineering I used to go deep in analysis of self. I felt as though something was stopping me from doing my best. So I thought and thought. Soon I started feeling some very strange things. I ran from doc to doc trying to figure out what those strange feelings were without much help. I tried most of the drugs in the market. I was even taken to a room to be given shock therapy but a kind soul who felt that it would kill me had it stopped. Soon I found a doc who understood my sickness and called it depersonalization/hyperawareness. I took Librium for around eight months. However I could not get back to studies. Finally one day a priest told me that he could not help me either but suggested that I learn how to be at peace. Then I started calming myself down with slogans like 'lets just be at peace' I would keep chanting this to myself till I felt better. Sometimes it would go on for hours. Gradually I got back to studies and completed my engineering. I worked as a research and development engineer for a year and then felt I had my problems under control and signed in for a masters in business management at a premier university in NY where I was accepted because of high GMAT score. I completed my first sem with straight A's in the five courses that I took. I also had a 4.9/5 rating in the courses I taught at the same university. However somewhere in my second sem I started feeling unhappy with myself, started thinking and before long started experiencing those strange things once again. Then started another endless run from doc to doc. I went through a lot of cognitive behavior therapy but still don't feel any better. > Please help me. I feel I am wasting my life away... >
> thanks and regards NJ Hi, and welcome to the list. Please understand I am not a therapist. I will not be the one to help you. Instead you will help yourself and your life will not waste away. I am a neuroscientist, and the self-help measures are simple measures based on the discovery of the biology of emotional disorders . Depersonalization is just one more label for the symptoms of emotional disease, symptoms that are detox crises, and you will want to recognize excitatory nervous symptoms as triggers of underlying anger and redirect this anger back to your parents and other persons in your life who caused you to suppress justifiable anger. Sounds like your mother was a perfectionist and pushed you, and the rigid religious background is a sure sign you had to suppress anger. You don't need to remember any specific childhood abuse, but just know you had to suppress your anger. I'm glad to hear you have begun the redirecting and are reading the suggested Archives in the Welcome Message. Please print out the article, The Biology of Emotions, as a pamphlet to study and refer to when you have questions. Also read the longer version, the scientific article and my long story on: http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26 Take your time and read the Messages (Archives) where you will find support and encouragement and more tips on how to do the redirecting. Let us know how it goes. You are not alone in this journey to peace of mind and a new life. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 725 From: Tom Mellett> Date: Mon Oct 2, 2000 8:21am Subject: Archives http://www.egroups.com/messages/Depression-Anxiety All subscribers can access the Archives directly on the egroups website by clicking on:
__________________________________ http://www.egroups.com/messages/ Depression-Anxiety
> I hope I did not seem pushy or arrogant with the instincto info, I find all other work much easier and more effective eating this way. Thanks for filling me in about the specific function of the group. The self-help has been a wonderful tool. For years I have been expressing past feeling of pain and trying to release the through bodywork, journaling, and therapy. I have had some relief but still so much guilt and self directed anger that block access to deeper primal feelings. With this work I get to the core much more readily. I see how so much of my depression is actually anger. Also, I am a little confused about the mechanics of the work do you only redirect when feelings arise [this is what I do] or do you also do it as a daily practice? I have been having tremendous amounts of energy coupled with deep feelings of compassion, gratitude and self love which I attribute to this work, finally really getting my insticto practice to work for me, and freeing myself psychically from a relationship where I was losing a lot of vitality, which is a direct result of the redirecting. mg You were not at all pushy about food. I began eating Instinctively before I made this discovery and you are right that the emotional detox is more effective when eating raw food. The cooked and processed foods are like drugs that suppress the anger. I have shared this with the group, put a link to info on Instinctive Eating in my article, and there are some Archives (Messages) about food, ie. No. 406 deals with the physical detoxification. It's just that I am not a nutritionist and can't be a guide with changing diets. I had to get into eating raw food little by little. People on this list who are still into SAD, can get pretty sick if they do this suddenly and some don't understand that their symptoms are healing events. When post flood and the food addictions have subsided, it's easier for them to make changes. In fact their nervous systems are cleared out and can do the daily job of detoxifying, so they are likely to get less sick from junk food. But they will get sick and be guided toward eating more raw food. Hope you can recognize that guilt as anger turned inward and redirect it. Please study the section on excitatory nervous symptoms and try to recognize these as detox crisis, ie attempts by the brain to release excess neurochemicals that store repressed anger, ie stored in neurons due to past suppressing of emotions. This is the toxicosis that is being diminished little by little in periodic detox crises. You will probably have daily detox crises, which will diminish in intensity and frequency, but this depends on current stress, so people may differ in their progress. You may go along with a few detox crises each day and then if you have, for example, a serious rejection, it could trigger more intense and more frequent detox crises. Keep watching for the excitatory nervous symptoms. You will be guided. Some have found when depressed that they can consciously trigger a detox by doing some pounding or finding other ways to release and redirect. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 728 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 7:58am Subject: A good beginning > Ellie, > It's been two days since I've begun the redirecting. I've completely stopped studying and am alone at home the whole day. I feel depressed about my situation. I keep doing the redirecting throughout the day, however I am not feeling better. How long will it be before I feel better? Am I doing anything wrong? I redirect by hitting on the bed with a pair of jeans, pounding on the bed etc. Hope you don't mind my impatience, NJ You are not doing anything wrong. I can't predict how soon you will feel better as we are all a bit different and progress depends on many factors. Two days is just a beginning. How soon you will feel better probably depends on how often stress triggers a detox crisis and how much effort you put into the redirecting when a crisis is triggered. This is a periodic detox process and will go on for a long time until all the repressed anger is released and redirected. You may even find you will want to get out rather than stay home. If your anger is triggered--watch for the excitatory nervous symptoms--and you really pound and get the anger out you may feel a high for a while. And then you may feel depressed again. Your mood swings may get worse for a while. Keep reading the pamphlet to understand the simple biological concept so you will see that this is a periodic detox process and what to expect. Hope this helps. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 729 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 8:46am Subject: Depression > Ellie, > I have a little question about 'detox crisis'. I feel depressed throughout the day. Can I label that to be a detox crisis? I also feel depersonalized throughout. Is that a detox crisis? NJ Check the list of excitatory nervous symptoms. These are detox crises. I'm not sure what depersonalization is. If you mean by depersonalized that you don't feel like your self, but feel like you are someone else it sounds like some distorted thinking that results from misdirected nerve impulses. If you are thinking of yourself as someone else it may be a part of a fantasy that is set up in your mind so as to reenact some childhood trauma and get the anger out. Read the scientific article on dreams and fantasies. I would suggest not trying to analyze your symptoms too much, but just follow the directions about when and how to redirect. Depression is not a detox crisis, but depression often follows a detox crisis. During a detox crisis there are some neurochemicals released that sedate the nervous system and cause depression. There are detox crises going on in many parts of the brain at he same time, so it is not possible to be cut and dried about this. Some people may swing from a high to a low quickly. Others may be high for a long time and then go into a depressive stage, eg a manic depressive. I found I just had to put up with the depression, which would lift with another detox crisis when I would redirect and get very physical doing so. Put a sign on the refrig saying "It will lift." Other people found they could do some redirecting when depressed and pull themselves out of it. Since you are feeling depressed all day, it might be good to get out and do some exercise and redirect while doing it. Or watch TV movies that might trigger your anger. Or write your story about early childhood and relationships. And see some ways to get anger out in the Welcome message. Ellie
http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 730 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Tue Oct 3, 2000 10:29am Subject: RE: manic depression > > Others may be high for a long time and then go into a depressive stage, eg a manic depressive. I found I just had to put up with the depression, which would lift with another detox crisis when I would redirect and get very physical doing so. Ellie > This describes me very well. I was pretty high from January until may....I am not depressed now, but my mood is not as elated as it was then. AD This sounds like a good sign. If you were doing the redirecting from Jan to May? then you were releasing excess noradrenaline and this is what made you feel high during that period. But in time, as the toxicosis clears up, there will be fewer of the sedative/depressant substances released along with the noradrenaline, and you should not go into a depressive stage any more. Keep redirecting. Ellie
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