This file contains all the messages in the Yahoo group currently located at the link below. This will allow you to read through the messages off-line
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28 From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Tue Sep 7, 1999 3:56am Subject: Cats My Girlfriend's Cat by Maury Tis true-My girlfriend's cat and I Spook each other-she/me, with Sudden, sharp biting when I've Scratched too long and Too hard on her rear haunches Raaaar! Me/she With weighted steps and Leaden frame enfused with the Rage of suppressed years, jerking into the Room too fast, slamming the cabinet with the Faulty latch hard so the damn thing'll catch. Rrrrrr! Tis true-Regarding my girlfriend's cat: that I Long considered her biting, her Primal and immediate response to mis-Treatment a sign of mental dis-Ease-but I now see-very plainly-it is Not! For if-One observes closely one will invariably Discover-not a thin minute after biting-my Girlfriend's cat once again purring, re-Sounding with forgiveness, whilst I nurse my Wounds-both inside and out-for Days! --
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Wed Sep 8, 1999 3:53am Subject: Trouble Redirecting Janet wrote: > please tell me more about this Caron program...where is this? How much does it cost? info greatly appreciated.. > > I will work this week to again attempt to redirect and get in touch with anger and rage all I feel is hopelessness and fear...scared...but will try again and see if I can access anger and rage. Dear Janet, Caron is a big center with rehabs and they have a special place for people to go and do the work on co-dependency. It is a beautiful house in PA and where I went and learned to do redirecting of anger in a kind of psychodrama, they call them sculptures. It was the beginning of my true recovery. I have never received the love I got in that one week. The sculptures for example were-- I would pretend I was back in the crib and two others in my group would pretend they were my parents ignoring me. Then instead of just crying, the counselors encouraged me to get MAD and yell and hit a hard pillow with a padded bat called a bataka. This is what my self-help measures are based on, and my discovery of the biology of all this is why it works. The program is called Co-dependency Treatment for Adult Children from Dysfunctional families. It costs about $1000---it's worth every penny if you are having trouble doing this on your own. You have to pay upfront but my insurance company eventually paid for it after some prodding on my part and a letter from my therapist. Lots of therapists go to Caron, to help themselves, and then better help their clients. The phone number for Caron is 1-800-678-2332 See also http://www.caron.org/ Please try to trust that the toxic mind theory is sound and scientifically true, and the self-help measures are based on what is going on in the brain. When you feel fear (or any nervous symptom) it is because your brain is releasing (detoxing) excess adrenaline. Underneath the fear and other symptoms, (misdirected anger, guilt, low self-esteem, paranoia, cravings, etc) is repressed anger (stored as excess noradrenaline). All the symptoms are detoxification crises, and the trick is to understand this and everytime you have a symptom, get MAD, pound on the bed or mentally redirect it toward ALL past people who caused you to suppress your justifiable anger. Your parents did the best they could but they were sick, and it is their sickness you need to get mad at, not their true souls. Ellie 30 From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Thu Sep 9, 1999 5:03am Subject: Authority > Ellie, > I have a new sense of respect for you for responding to my disobedience with little defensiveness and much humanity. I've always been afraid of expressing my true feelings to authority figures, who, when challenged, usually defend their guruships and attending dogma to the death (always mine not theirs). It's refreshing to meet a proselytizer who is open to challenge and who admits that her expressions (words) are not always perfect. No wonder you don't have a big following and Mainstream Science/Psychology hasn't embraced your theory. Ha! Ha! (To me this may be a sign that you're the real deal.) Thanks, too, for posting my poem. That made me smile. :) > With affection, > Maury
Dear Maury, My only claim to authority is about the science and that the theory of toxicosis is proven by research-- fifty years of my research and that of many others--and it is upon this that the self-help measures are based--and why they work. About how to convey these measures to others and how to carry them out, I am only one who, by understanding the simple biology, used these measures and found them to rapidly restore my sanity, relieve me of all addictions, and bring me to that state of normalcy that Janov describes as post primal. I make many mistakes in conveying this and continually learn new ways of using the measures from others. It's interesting that a number of people have been very excited about this theory and then questioned it--you among them. I found an old message from you saying you couldn't understand any flack I got, knowing this was hard earned wisdom. I think that people doing this work have times when they are detoxing (having detox crises, ie excitatory symptoms, such as misdirected anger) and anger is being released (as toxic amounts of neurochemicals). I think they are trying to rightfully express anger at their parents and others in authority who made them suffer. Sometimes this gets directed at me in the form of criticism of the theory. I hope that no one ever feels guilty when this happens, if so, I would send my usual response--guilt is anger misdirected inward--hope it can be redirected. We are all innocent. "Mainstream Science/Psychology hasn't embraced your theory." They have been confronted--most acknowledge it's truth and then ignore me. I'm beginning to get some nice responses from prisons. Take a look at the testimonials on my new earthlink site. And soon it will be up in five languages. You may find dancing neurons speaking in Arabic. Ellie
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway
Ellie
- 32 From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Sat Sep 11, 1999 3:47am Subject: Post Flood Grief I've been quite low. I had a couple of really bad weeks which made me really feel I'm not post-anything at all. There's a Primal center here I just found out about, and I'm going to try it out. I was in tears at the initial interview - and that's before the therapy even starts. Cathy
Don't forget the post- flood I speak of is post -intense anger. The muddy basin with some anger and a lot of sadness and grief lasted for me a good year. When most of the anger is gone there is intense grief. (it's the parasympathetic system detoxing). Janov makes it clear that post-primal doesn't always mean happy. The primal therapy sounds good--it might help you get through the grief period faster--but I'll be very surprised if you have much more anger to detox. The problem with primal therapy for detoxing the repressed anger is that not all the therapists understand the need to redirect anger during a primal. And his means that during primal therapy one can experience more emotional pain than is necessary. But it might be very helpful going through the grief period. I'll be very interested in how it goes for you. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Sat Sep 11, 1999 7:16am Subject: Other Measures I want to mention that when I discovered this biology of emotions and used the self-help measures based on this, I had no support from anyone to guide me other than my new understanding of the biology. This understanding is what I am offering to others by publishing the article on the Internet. Also, I occasionally used other techniques along with these measures. I need to say that I have never proposed the self-help measures as the only way, although they will work fully by themselves. The toxic mind theory supports most therapies and many other techniques, such as those of Thomas Stone, Jean Jensen, Stettbacher, Hubbard, and others, and I have mentioned these in the longer version of my article. I feel hurt and angry when people suggest that I am proposing this as the only way. I hope this is clear to anyone interested in the self-help measures. I also want to say that if anyone is using the self-help measures by themselves, it is very important to keep re-reading the article so as to understand how these measures work, and all of the explanations of what post-flood is, i.e. the end of the major detoxification of repressed anger, and that there will continue be some lingering anger that needs to be redirected for a good year, and that there will be a long period of grief, and that there will always be a need to be vigilant about not suppressing anger in current interactions. Being normal does not mean a sustained 'high.' It is having all the emotions we were born with--anger, sadness, and joy. Please keep re-reading the articles. The purpose of this list is not to repeat what can be found in the articles, but to provide a place for further understanding and new ways to use the self-help measures that some of you have shared with me. Ellie
Lynn
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Wed Sep 15, 1999 9:17am Subject: Post flood blues If any of you have been using the self-help measures consistently and have reached the point where the major detox of repressed anger is over--this is the point of post-flood when you should begin to identify with Janov's post primal patients--please do not be discouraged by the temporary but often intense grief period. The result of suppressing justifiable anger in childhood is a flood of neurochemicals in the noradrenergic and sympathetic nervous systems. The work of releasing and redirecting anger, which can be accomplished in a few months, means this flood is almost gone. There is still a muddy basin, which means some lingering anger related to childhood will have to be released along with anger in current interactions. This post-flood point is when there are no longer major mood swings. i.e. depression should be gone unless you are suppressing anger in current interactions. It is at this point of post flood that the parasympathetic nervous system can do it's job of processing feelings of grief. Without getting into the science, I have tried to make this clear in the short version of the article and have asked you to keep re-reading this for this reason. It has been important for me to stress doing the work of releasing and redirecting anger in order to reach this post-flood point because it is NOT until you are post-flood that the grief can be processed. This does not mean, when post-flood, you are suddenly free of emotional pain or relieved of all symptoms or addictions. I hope you will try to understand this and know that as I've said in the article, there is no sudden cure, and the muddy basin period can last a good year or so. Once you have done the scary and sometimes painful work of releasing and redirecting anger you have won the battle!, done the work!, and it will get slowly better. Your body will do it for you from now on. I can say for me now my pain of the past is gone, my anger about my childhood is gone, and my grief is gone, and I have peace of mind and freedom from anxiety and distress. I have feelings of anger when appropriate, but I don't suppress it, and I have no depression, or grief about my own past. I feel sadness for others and a great sense of joy at seeing others recover. I recommend the promises in the 23rd Psalm. They have come true for me. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Thu Sep 16, 1999 9:29am Subject: Relationships post flood When I became post flood there was a re-adjustment of my co-dependent relationships. I was no longer co-dependent, but some of my friends and close family members were still co-dependent with me. This meant some painful re-adjustment at times. In the case of my 95 year old aunt who was my mother substitute, I confronted her. She reacted defensively and after a while I reassured her that I still loved her, and we now have a new relationship that is loving even though she has not recovered from her co-dependency. In some cases I am no longer friends with those who were co-dependent with me. What I know now is that if I had not used the self-help measures and recovered from my co-dependency, that all of my relationships were headed for even more emotional pain than had I recovered. I hope that if any of you are at this point of readjustment, you will not want your old pain, anxiety and depression, and mood swings back, but will focus on the end of the adjustment period when relationships should be smoother. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Thu Sep 16, 1999 11:07pm Subject: Post Flood problems The fact is that the problems FEEL less intense, and that must be because once post-flood we don't think WE ARE the problem any more. All human beings encounter many problems, stakes, challenges, failures and losses, but the emotionally balanced ones get over them in time, and that's what makes the difference. They don't feel they have to die because they have a conflict with someone. I can be real low and cry every tear of my heart and feel like a complete failure for 24 hours max. and then I feel I'm worth a solution to the problem, and I start working on it. This is not the way I used to react half a year ago. I would plunge for three weeks and emerge out of depression with the feeling that relapses will continue all my life long. This kind of thinking pattern has totally died. That's the amazing point for me here, because I had been working on these thinking patterns for some years with different therapists and methods but they did not change much. Lynn
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Sun Sep 19, 1999 7:33am Subject: The muddy basin period I have been confused, probably because of the grief and lows I've been feeling and my life is particularly hard at the moment and I've isolated myself a bit. I'm not sure this is depression because I don't feel hopeless...but I do feel- I don't want to feel like this. Hence the primal therapy. I was low all day today and didn't get out of bed...I maybe ought to have tried re-directing some anger - but its not been as easy here re-neighbors. But I could do it. Also feelings that no-one understands re-the twins bit...and feelings about feeling trapped here re-co-dependency and all. I want this primal therapy to be a magic cure to get me out of this hole I feel I'm stuck in; I'm impatient and don't want to spend 20 years on it. or even 6 months of grief. I don't know whether to go for the primal thing or not. Maybe I'm ok and don't know it. Cathy
Post flood, when most of the repressed anger is gone, and major mood swings should have ceased, is not cured, and for me the muddy basin period lasted about a year. When I felt angry in current interactions there was some old anger mixed in that needed to be redirected. If I stuffed the anger, I was later depressed, so I learned not to do this. As time went on there was less and less old anger and now my anger is not intense and about the current interaction only. The grief lasted a few months and also became less and less. Since you know what is going on in your brain and the need to redirect anger when feelings come up in primal therapy, it sounds like primal therapy might be just the ticket to get you through this muddy basin period faster. Please let us know. I think God provides the 'highs' during the major detox of anger to lure us on to do this work, and I'm going to blame him/her for the let down post-flood and the long adjustment period. Ellie
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway and on: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version is on: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 39 From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Sun Sep 19, 1999 8:14am Subject: Antidepressants Your statement of "biologically the antidepressants have the same effect as the self help measures" then it seems the effects are ONLY good for while you are doing the measures, since the antidepressants don't HEAL what is wrong, but just give back what the body is lacking. Janet
Ellie
Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Wed Sep 29, 1999 4:38am Subject: Relationships Hello Ellie, I returned yesterday from one month long visit to see my friend. Economical catastrophe considering my incomes, - it was not what I thought it would be, but I have no regrets. It is good now and then to do something which is against what one feels familiar. And it is very beneficial for me to have someone to miss -- I get closer to my sadness, closer to myself. Mario
Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle Date: Fri Oct 1, 1999 6:30am Subject: Confronting people I love your letters, Ellie. They are so affirming! Good news. Last night I was at a meeting and was telling the group about a problem I'm having with the meditation we do. A woman, who is about as emotional as a log, had no idea what I was saying, so she said something stupid in response that had nothing to do with what I had just said. But because of the redirecting, instead of feeling furious and helpless, I just thought about it for a while, and later I very frankly and non-emotionally said that what she had said was not apt or correct. I felt very strong as I said this and very mature. I know being able to set the record straight was a very big deal for me, and yet because of all the redirecting it didn't feel like a big deal. But the way others responded to what I had said made me feel I had passed some kind of barrier. It was good! Love you, Valerie
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