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257 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 16, 2000 11:53pm Subject: Re: weight loss > Ellie, I thought maybe it as related, ie, the weight. I too have a tingling in back of tongue, wondered what that was, alive taste buds I suppose. It's like my 'want to's' have changed, I want to eat good things, and repulsed by the processed and bad. IT is absolutely a new experience. Sally Isn't it nice being attracted to what will keep us healthy and happy. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 17, 2000 0:12am Subject: Re: SUCCESS > Hi Ellie -- > As usual, you helped me clarify my thoughts, so beautifully. It's not success I want-- that over-rated, much hyped concept that in our society has been twisted all out of proportion and taken on meanings that drive people to many forms of self-destructive behavior. No, what I really want is focus and purpose. And yes, of course, that will come with mental clarity and mental peace of mind. You are a striking example of how one can rise up like a Phoenix at any age and find a great and true purpose to fulfill. > Love -- Shirley
Ellie
From: (unknown) Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:50pm Subject: [archive note: this message was empty] 260 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 17, 2000 4:38am Subject: Happy childhoods? Dear Ellie, I watched quite sometime the news from the list but I was never writing anything cause I haven't yet started to do the redirecting you may ask why but the only reason is that I'm not really decided to whom I would like to let out my anger, I feel that people around me are treating me adequately and I had also a very caring mother and would say happy childhood. My husband tries best he can to cope with my depression - so all the anger goes towards myself and I started banging my head to the wall yesterday but it didn't make me feel any better I just cant stop hating myself for being unable to enjoy or feel at least something -how can I start to redirect it away from me? Molly Dear Molly, If you are banging your head on the wall, it is turning the anger inward. I thought I had a very happy childhood too. It doesn't take much for parents to neglect us emotionally. I was never abused or hurt, and my mother cared for me. But she didn't believe in picking up babies, and left me in my crib to cry. Just that was VERY bad and what caused me to suppress my anger and become so sick. Did you read my Author note on the article. You may not remember any trauma from childhood, but if you have depression and are directing anger at yourself, you were abused somehow. What was your father like? I thought my mother was caring too, but her way of protecting me from hearing my father rage (never at me) was to leave me in my room. Just hearing my father get angry was abusive...I was afraid he would get angry at me next. So my mother didn't really protect me. When you redirect and get mad at your parents don't think about how caring they were while you are redirecting. When all the anger is out, you can think about how wonderful they were and all the good things about them. But for now you need to just get mad at them for neglecting you emotionally. The whole world is codependent and needs this recovery, but most think, like you, that their parents loved them. Our parents did love us the best they could. It's not that parents need to be perfect, but they need to let us be angry when they aren't perfect, and most parents don't allow their children to get angry at them. Even though you don't recall any specific abuse, it must have been there or you wouldn't be depressed. Try when you feel like banging your head, to pound on the wall or bed, and direct your anger to your parents mentally WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT THE PAST. Try it and really get mad and redirect it, and let it all out at them, not yourself. You could say in your head to your parents...."It's your fault I'm depressed. I hate you for that." You will feel better. Keep doing this everytime you feel anxious or fearful. Please reread the article so you know what the excitatory nervous symptoms are that are signals to release and redirect some anger. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:25am Subject: Success Just wanted to clarify my thoughts about success. I think when our brains clear out we have the capacity to be brilliant and use the talents we were born with. I don't mean by success and money and power that we become controlling of others or ambitious for these in a selfish way. I think eventually everyone will have plenty of success, money, and power...power in the sense of being effective in giving our gifts to the world. I know some of the Scientologists have been seen to be very controlling, and I sense those who are controlling are not Really, fully 'clear' yet. Ellie
From: (unknown) Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:50pm Subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/depression-cause-cure/message/262?expand=1 [archive note: this message was empty 263 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:15am Subject: Dreams > Oh Ellie, I had a violent dream night before last, I dreamed I was so angry with this girl, I hit her in the face twice, and in the dream she was someone that hurt me 16 years ago, I didn't know the girl very well, and she turned against me, she was cheating on her husband and wanted me to go along and lie with her and I wouldn't. Couldn't believe I would dream that after this many years, she moved from this area over 15 years ago. Actually, I was glad of the dream -as if I vented in the dream and when I woke up, I didn't feel the same about her as when my thoughts of her in the past. Kinda strange. so I hit the pillow and said have another fist. So, even my subconscious is working together with me or what? Sally Yes, dreams are often detox crises and very healing. See the section on Sleep disorders and Dreams and Fantasies in: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26/depression.html My dreaming now is mild and related to what I experienced and thought about during the day, but still it is mixed up with the past. Experience and thoughts are laid down as characteristics, so during dreaming when the conscious mind is not integrating the experience, its as if the mosaic of experience was taken apart and reassembled in a different form, ie a different scenario of the experience. A female friend may show up as my mother for example, or my aunt may show up as a female friend. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 2:49am Subject: Other emotions > Dear Ellie I am progressing well. When I released the anger, I could see what all are there beside anger. For example, fear, love, worries, guilt - all these emotions are there, unexpressed so far. You mention that 'anger turned inward becomes fear'. I could appreciate that. Does that mean, as I work on releasing the unexpressed anger, fear will get converted back to its original form (which is anger) and get released? Or, do I have to work on releasing the fear separately? If yes, how to do that? > How about tackling other strong emotions, mentioned above: love, worries & guilt. For example, every passing moment, I find myself worried about every decision I make. Irrespective of the decision, (if I take yes or no - either way, at the end of the decision, worrying is assured for me), I find myself trapped in the worrying habit. Also, I find myself carrying a lot of guilt with me from childhood days. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance - Regina When anger is continually suppressed excess noradrenaline (which stores the anger) accumulates and also excess adrenaline. During detox crises both noradrenaline and adrenaline are released, but it is the excess adrenaline that overexcites the heart and causes the fear. Fear doesn't get converted back to anger, but when all the anger (which is stored as noradrenaline)is out, so will the fear be gone. That's the best way I can explain it. So you don't have to work on getting fear out. What you have to do is be willing to feel the fear and recognize it as a signal that underlying anger wants out, release the anger and redirect it toward all past abusers. Don't try to analyze feelings, just go through the fear and get to the anger. Love, worries and guilt are not true emotions. Real love I would define as 'caring about the well being of another.' It sounds like you are referring to the kind of 'love feeling,' 'in love' 'attraction', that is a craving for another. This is codependent love, and a craving, just like a craving for alcohol. This kind of love, this craving, will gradually go away. If you feel it you can recognize it as a symptom and do some releasing and redirecting of anger. For example, you might say in your head to your parents, "it's your fault I'm craving this person" (who probably reminds you of your parents) but if you fall in love anyway, it's probably going to be an opportunity to get anger out and not necessarily to be avoided. Codependencies are useful to help us get the anger out, and if the other person is in recovery too, they can become healthy relationships. Worry and guilt are also not emotions, but thoughts, and again triggers to get anger out. I think all decisions are for our progress. Worry is compulsive thinking and a trigger to do some releasing and redirecting of anger. Guilt is anger turned inward. It's usually our parents voices in our heads...I used to say...'get out of my head' if I felt guilty. We are innocent of everything we do or think. Hope this helps. It's a bit hard to explain, but just keep looking for opportunities to get the anger out and redirect. Eventually you will not suffer from that kind of love, or worry, or guilt. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 3:29am Subject: Checking in > Dear Ellie, >
> I haven't written for a while so thought I'd check in with you. Things have been going along slowly. I have been doing some redirecting in my head as there's not always something to bang on and I find that it's immediate. The redirecting has been mainly to mum, the guy that molested me when I was very young and to my biological father who was around also when I was very young and was responsible for creating quite an unpleasant environment. >
> The looking at past stuff has helped me to understand a lot of the behavior, thoughts and feelings that I experience. >
> I wanted to ask you also whether you've ever heard of Pia Mellody? I am currently reading a book of hers - "Facing Codependence". As I'm reading it, I've been thinking "Yes! That's how I feel/react etc." She traces a lot of what we go through as adults, back to our childhood. I'm finding it a very useful book and would recommend it to others. That's all for now, Tina
Glad to hear the mentally redirecting is working. I don't know that book, but the self-help measures are part of the ninth step for recovery from codependency, 'Dealing with those who have harmed us' as described by Melody Beattie in her book of the 12 steps for codependency. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Feb 19, 2000 4:48am Subject: Emotions Tina, I may be arbitrary in saying the 'love feeling' and guilt are not emotions, but I don't think it's useful to speak of them as emotions that need to be dealt with. I find it more helpful to think of them as triggers for underlying anger and opportunities to release and redirect it. Hope this is a more useful way of looking at them. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Feb 20, 2000 1:42am Subject: 'A time to hate and a time to love' > thanks for subscribing me...and for your support.. we can now refer to you know whos as MY family, or parents or whatever we want!!!! > ---------- > I have read the article. thanks for reminding me to turn hate to Them... Laura
Ellie
> Ellie, I found myself with that excitatory feeling yesterday, when someone whom has been trying to compete with my business came into my store,...she nervingly showed up and I was busy - so didn't get to confront her. I felt that fight or flight feeling, I am still going through this emotion and wondering where this is coming from. I found myself angry at the 'challenge' to compete with her. I haven't until reading something on this list realized when I was younger, growing up in a small competitive town, you had to look like, act like, smell like, have everything alike, to be accepted, and of course coming from the family I did, I didn't 'fit' in and felt like an outcast, my mother could have, knowing the pressure, built me up to realize I was okay whether I 'fit' in or not. The competition was there. I want to work on what is causing this excitatory stimuli, or else I wouldn't 'have this incident' on my mind still this morning, right. That is one way I have learned the need to 'get rid' of an emotion is that it stays in the mind, repeating the incident over and over, sort of a self punishment thing, a trigger to redirect. To redirect I have always had to have understanding of what is the correlation, it seems to get rid of the anger much faster, it is not always needfull, but I kinda like the quicker version. So when I was little my mother did do anything that would let me compete, we did nothing, said nothing to other parents when their children were rude. So if I sit idly by now, I am feeling those same feelings and all, I was not less than then of course, but as a child I didn't know that, I am sure not less than now, and I know that. I think I need a little guidance here, kinda feeling lost in this old emotion, it was a VERY strong emotion growing up, a constant companion of competition, even thou I didn't have opportunity even prove I was okay the way I was, I had to take the back seat to feeling inferior, less than and walked on. The most wonderful thing is I do realize I am faced with the opportunity to be rid of those old emotions. I can't even put in words the intensity of those days. It was much like Hitler did to his country. Beaten down, trod on. I'm not a little girl any more, but have the little hurt girl inside still. It is as if I now have a mother in me that is going to protect that little girl on the inside, she now wants to stand up and say, honey this is the last time they will do this to you. Sally Dear Sally If I understand this, your mother didn't let you compete and put you down instead, so now you have some fear/anger reaction with this women, who wants to put you down also? Sounds like you are having the feelings and doing some more redirecting to your mother, which should eventually let you react to this women without fear or intense anger. Similar maybe to my experience with my boss who was my father figure. It is only now that I was finally able to have my normal amount of anger with him (he is trying to put me down) and confront him without fear. (It's not that I'm trying to compete with him, but have recognition for my work and not be put down for it). But my anger with him is no longer mixed with anger at my father... Ellie 269 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Feb 20, 2000 5:35am Subject: Re: Dreams > Ellie -- Sally's dream reminds me of a dream I had about a week ago. I dreamed that a friend from my college days, 25 years ago (!) existed as a program in my computer, and that this bad program was causing my computer to malfunction. I actually saw her picture on the screen of the computer in the dream. Woke up knowing that some people from that period in my life still had to be dealt with. Consciously, I had forgiven her a long, long time ago and had looked forward to the possibility of looking her up and contacting her, but I guess my subconscious knows more than I do, and I did a little bit of redirecting based on that knowledge. Shirley 270 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 6:55am Subject: Ups and downs are temporary Ellie, in my head I keep saying 'I hate you' over & over. That's what comes out when I refocus. I hate them for teasing me. for being cold & withdrawn. for making me feel worthless for only paying attention to make fun of or criticize me. for no encouragement in positive modes. for teaching me stealing was o.k. for yelling at me. for hating me. for not getting help for themselves. for blaming me for the family problems. Laura
I was disappointed to realize I have not experienced any change yet. If there was a 12-step coda or aca group here I would go. There is not. I tried the alanon. They mostly read. I could not sit still for the readings which went on for an hr...drove me nuts. >
> I only do the anger redirection when I get triggered. Now I'm depressed. I've been nicely rejected - big for me. I feel so sad, hurt-& the icky messages are temporarily buried. but I know what they are. > 'It will always be this way, No one will ever love me, I'm not good enough the other woman is better then I, I will always be alone, then I move to thoughts of escape' over & over, time after time this is what I hear in my head. It hurts to hear this. NOW What do I do? > > Here's my question? sometimes when I'm triggered, I redirect in my head,- I force myself to see my parents...at best I might say in my head I hate you, without a specific incident related to them it's hard to stay there or do more. Laura This is great, you don't need to 'stay there or do more'...it's a periodic detoxification process and you will have to go through the ups and downs for a while...maybe several months depending on how often you are triggered to do the redirecting...don't be discouraged by the periodic depressions. Mood swings may get worse for a while, but then will be less intense and less often. Some have gotten out of the depression by doing some anger work. I don't think the 12 step programs will help much, you can do it much faster by using the self-help measures. Keep reading the Archives for support. Ellie
Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 8:21pm Subject: Long time post flood friend > Dear Ellie, I read everything that comes on your list too, b/c seeing people slowly getting insight and awareness is sweetening my days. Lynn 273 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Advice please Were you attracted to the self-help measures because of the Author Note and my story of recovery, or because of the toxic mind theory as explained in the article. I'm never sure whether to put the Author Note first or at the end of the article. Please let me know your opinion based on what attracted you. I see the One List people are asking for mailing address information. I hope this doesn't deter people from joining. You don't have to fill it in. I like knowing your sex, age, and where you live. I have a map on my wall and put little stickers on where you live. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Feb 21, 2000 10:12pm Subject: More advice please Please also tell me whether you found the longer version on the pages.nyu.edu site useful, or is everything you needed to know about the self help in the shorter versions. Ellie
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway/depression.html The same article entitled Self help for addictions is on: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version entitled Self help for emotional disorders is on: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26/depression.html To join the Depression-Anxiety list: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety
Then they ask me, 'how come you don't have all these problems, with the background you came out of'. I tell them and they don't get well, and this is why, my theory. I notice people who come in my store, after awhile, they will say, 'did you know I have such and such disease', as if they are proud of have it. It is their source of worth, the attention they need to so desperately feel alive. You know Ellie I am every morning SURPRISED when I get up, know why, I don't have that heavy feeling, that little black cloud that has hovered over my head of doom or impending disaster has gone, I may have a few can I use the word 'climaxes' that's the word that comes to me, these climaxes lately are the excitory stimuli, than give opportunity to redirect, anyway lately even thou these climaxes, I don't have the down, depressed feelings of defeat anymore, but as they pass on through the redirecting, I am getting more and more open and honest with myself and others. I have noticed the fear of what others say or do is not a problem as was in the past, like I say what I need to say in a given situation without the fear. I say no and don't even think of the usual immediately thought, 'what will they say' sometimes I don't think til days later, wonder what they thought. It's not that evveerrryday working up the thoughts don't mind what they think' just do what you think is right. It's more automatic now. It's that life flowing from within, and not working it up. That keeping of the law, gotta do it just right to be accepted thing. > I'm just so glad to wake up each morning, even yesterday, I always had blue Mondays, was Monday yesterday, I notice I'm not in that blue mood for over 2 months now. And even if the weather is bad, it doesn't affect me nor circumstances, you don't know how long I've tried to get to this place. Called peace. Thanks for bringing me the rest of the way. love, Sally Don't thank me, I'm just a sister who got this message too. You had this understanding of how to heal long before I did. Isn't it tragic how codependency grips people. It's the basic underlying addiction, the beginning of a toxic mind and the delusion that Mama and Daddy (and all the substitute Mamas and Daddys) will love us if we only stay sick and needy. I guess people just have to hit a real bottom before they are 'ready to hear.' I think codependency is much more abusive than active alcoholism. It's subtle and tricky.
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