About ismaili kafirs
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- I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong
- Prince Hussain and Princess Khaliya with His Eminence Sayyed Mohammad Musawi
 About ismaili kafirs
Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present.
#2  AlgerianShia
Member
Posted 04 July 2009 - 09:57 AM Abdullah_A, on Jul 4 2009, 06:10 AM, said: 
Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present. i cant believe they think that "millionare" agha khan is an imam....
#3 Aabiss_Shakari
http://www.abubakr.org
Posted 04 July 2009 - 10:17 AM They offer prayer facing any side which means they do not necessarily face Kaba for offering their prayers. While having fast, they can eat and drink even and when questioned they say that Fast is of your tongue, eyes and limbs not of your stomach.
#4 real0019
Member
Posted 04 July 2009 - 10:28 AM Abdullah_A, on Jul 4 2009, 06:10 AM, said:
Ok my question is at what point in history did Ismaili's cease to be muslim and become ghulati and more? Did the Fatimids observe daily salat and go on hajj? I guess my question is regarding their status among muslims in the past and in the present. 
Good question. Today, there are two surviving sects of Ismailis: Nizaris (followers of Aga Khan IV) and Tayyibis. The latter group adheres to the same fiqh developed by Qadhi al-Nu'man as observed by Ismailis of the Fatimid era. Tayyibis don't, as far as I know, hold ghulati beliefs (though the recent chief da'is of the mainstream Tayyibis have claimed infallibility). As for the Nizaris, they abandoned the Shari'a since the Alamut era. In the past, Nizaris have generally held ghulati beliefs regarding their imam. Today, as Nizaris are becoming more mainstream, these exaggerated beliefs are being systematically thrown out.
#5 Abdullah_A
Posted 04 July 2009 - 10:37 AM
So does that mean nikah is valid with Tayyibis?
#6 real0019
Member
Posted 04 July 2009 - 10:56 AM I don't see why not, unless the Tayyibi holds hatred toward our Imams
#7 Taalib Shivraj
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 12:10 AM Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters, Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful. 1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong? 2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?
#8 Dar'ul_Islam
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 02:02 AM Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said: Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters, Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful. 1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong? 2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)? 1. They do consider themselves Muslim. To them, the Imam's job is to interpret the religion for the time - to them the Qur'an is not the book of all time, rather that time. Our view of the Imamah (as well as Mustali Ismailis AKA Bhoris) is that the Imam perfectly preserves the Sunnah of Rasulullah 2. Ismailis came into existence after the death of the Sixth Imam, Imam as Sadiq My limited knowledge.
#9 Aabiss_Shakari
http://www.abubakr.org
Posted 05 July 2009 - 02:43 AM Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said: Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters, Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful. 1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong?
They consider themselves to be muslims. EXCUSE ME Where Our Imamain Quote 2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)? They originated from Hazrat Ismail (a.s) who was eldest son of Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) and died during the life time of Imam (a.s). Later on the Ismailites followed the decendants of Hazrat Ismail (a.s) as their Imams while Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) announced time and again that Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) is his (a.s) successor.
#10 Redrum
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 03:23 AM Is Tayyibi a synonym of the Bohras or are Bohras just a part of a larger group called Tayyibis?
#11 Ali Huzaifa
Nothing was there and nothing will last other than Allah
Posted 05 July 2009 - 04:21 AM Redrum, on Jul 5 2009, 12:23 PM, said: Is Tayyibi a synonym of the Bohras or are Bohras just a part of a larger group called Tayyibis?
#12 Firoz Ali
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 06:52 AM Prince Hussain and Princess Khaliya with His Eminence Sayyed Mohammad Musawi http://img267.images...dding5lad6.jpg/ http://www.theroyalf...06-a-11187.html
#13 real0019
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 10:55 AM Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 12:10 AM, said: Salaaam Alaykum Brothers and sisters, Just a few questions regarding Ismailis if anyone of you can answer, that would really be helpful. 1. Do Ismailis consider themselves Muslim even though they obviously break some of the rules of the Quran? But, I was spaeking to an Ismaili, and I think he was trying to get at me at saying that our Imams have the right to change the rules of the Quran. Is that true? I mean, if our twelve Imams did that, would that be considered wrong? 2. When did the sect of Ismaili come into play? At what time in History? Who was it's founder? Where was he/ she from? Are their Imams descendants of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)?
1. Yes, Nizari Ismailis do. We Imamis do not hold such a belief because only a rasul can alter the Shari'a. The Imams of Ahl al-Bait 2. Possibly during the lifetime or after the death of Imam as-Sadiq
#14 YahyaX
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 04:13 PM Nope.
#15 Taalib Shivraj
Member
Posted 05 July 2009 - 06:41 PM Aabiss_Shakari, on Jul 5 2009, 03:43 AM, said: They consider themselves to be muslims. EXCUSE ME Where Our Imamain They originated from Hazrat Ismail (a.s) who was eldest son of Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) and died during the life time of Imam (a.s). Later on the Ismailites followed the decendants of Hazrat Ismail (a.s) as their Imams while Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) announced time and again that Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) is his (a.s) successor. Salaam Alaykum, Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say that our Imams did change the rules of the Quran. My question was that did they have the right the change the rules of the quran? And thanks for that informaton, but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor? I mean, wasn't it Allah's choice, and not the Imam's choice?
#16 -=Sajjad=-
Member
Posted 23 July 2009 - 11:21 PM Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 07:41 PM, said: Salaam Alaykum, Sorry, maybe you misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say that our Imams did change the rules of the Quran. My question was that did they have the right the change the rules of the quran?
I don't think they would even want to change the rules, let alone having the right to.. however changing the understanding, and ensuring proper application of those rules is another thing. Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 5 2009, 07:41 PM, said: And thanks for that informaton, but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor? I mean, wasn't it Allah's choice, and not the Imam's choice? you make it sound as if the Imam's choice conflicts with Allah's anyways, here's some hadith: [Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Abu Abdullah Ja'far bin Abdullah al-Muhammadi from al-Hasan bin Ali bin Fadhdhal from Safwan bin Yahya that Ishaq bin Ammar as-Sayrafi had said:] "Once my brother Isma'eel bin Ammar described his faith and beliefs to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq  by saying: "I witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." Then he declared his faith in the Imams, one after the other until he reached Imam Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq and then he said: "...and I witness that Isma'eel is the Imam after you."
Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq [Biharul Anwar, vol.47 p.261]
[Biharul Anwar, vol.48 p.22, Awalim al-Uloom, vol. 21 p.43] ------ [Abu Sulayman Ahmad bin Hawtha narrated from Ibraheem bin Iss~haq an-Nahawandi from Abdullah bin Hammad al-Ansari that Safwan bin Mihran al-Jammal had said:] "Mansoor bin Hazim and Abu Ayyoob al-Khazzaz said to Abu Abdullah as-Sadiq while I was present with them:
"May Allah make us die for you! One does not know when death comes. Who is our Imam after you?" He said: "If death comes, your man will be this." He patted his son Musa, who was then five years old. Abdullah bin Ja'far was also present in the house on that day." [Hilyatul Abrar, vol.2 p.289]
(Ja'far) pointed to his son, Musa. "If anything happened to Musa, who should I follow?" I asked. "His son," he replied. "If anything happened to his son?" "Then his son." "If something happened to him," I went on, "and he left a big brother and a small son?" "His son; it is always thus," he answered. [Kitab al-Irshad]
Then God named us with (five names derived from) five of His names. God is Māhmūd (the Praised) and I am Muhammad. God is ‘Alī (the High) and he is ‘Alī. God is Fātir (the Creator) and she is Fātimah. God is Dhul-Ihsān (the Bountiful) and this is Hasan. God is Muhsin (the Beneficent) and this is Husayn. Then God created from us and from Husayn nine Imāms. He called them and they obeyed Him. All of this happened before God created the skies, the earths, the angels, and humankind. We were lights who praised God, listened to Him, and obeyed Him.
(After Husayn is his son) ‘Alī ibn Husayn [Dalail al-Imāmah. p.447]
#17 Jondab_Azdi
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Posted 02 August 2009 - 08:40 AM Taalib Shivraj, on Jul 6 2009, 04:41 AM, said: Salaam Alaykum, but can you please give me a couple of sources where it was said that Imam Jaffar as sadiq (A.S) had announced Imam Kazim (A.S) as his next successor? ÃóÍúãóÏõ Èúäõ ÅöÏúÑöíÓó Úóäú ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ÚóÈúÏö ÇáúÌóÈøóÇÑö Úóäú ÕóÝúæóÇäó Úóäö ÇÈúäö ãõÓúßóÇäó Úóäú ÓõáóíúãóÇäó Èúäö ÎóÇáöÏò ÞóÇáó ÏóÚóÇ ÃóÈõæ ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÃóÈóÇ ÇáúÍóÓóäö ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) íóæúãÇð æó äóÍúäõ ÚöäúÏóåõ ÝóÞóÇáó áóäóÇ Úóáóíúßõãú ÈöåóÐóÇ Ýóåõæó æó Çááøóåö ÕóÇÍöÈõßõãú ÈóÚúÏöí Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from ibn Muskan from Sulayman ibn Khalid who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah ^Sahih a/c to Majlisi and Bahbudi. w/s
#18 89jghur32
Member
Posted 18 August 2009 - 11:54 AM 'lionking', on 04 Aug 2009 - 09:56 AM, said: The monster who fought for and founded Pakistan was an Aga Khani ismaili.
False. He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah. Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.
#19 JawzofDETH
Asmaa'ul Husnah
Posted 29 August 2009 - 07:39 PM 'ninjaslim', on 18 Aug 2009 - 10:24 PM, said: False. He was a Twelver Shia...he was born into an Ismaili family, but converted in later life to Imamiyyah. Although, he wasn't a practicing Muslim.
Yup, thats what I've read too. I want to know from a real bohra if like other Isma'ilis
#20 shoelace
Trust in words of GOD,Legend In Making.
Posted 30 September 2009 - 07:04 AM 'Fakhruddin', on 30 Sept 2009 - 4:35 PM, said: To all the above people who, say bad about Bohras. This is a true instance and many more, of current dai and previous dai of Bohra.
Our dai's have composed such a madeh and munaajats, that is unmatchable. famous marasia of Ya Sayyed da Shohadaee, written by 51st Dai Syedna Taher saifuddin are written on Zarih of Imam Hussain (a.s). There are many remarkable achievements and Islamic culture we follow which is difficult to describe on this forum.
Following is the first hand account of lives touched by our current Dai 52nd Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) Interviews of people whose lives have been touched by the grace of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb, TUS Following interview of Bahen Jumana Vasi, Dubai, by Sakina Sh Noman Miyajiwala and Mudar Patherya I was 18, carefree, rebellious, outgoing and member of the Ithna Ashara sect when I met Saifuddin Vasi at Teheran in 1969. We married a year later following my ritualistic misaaq. I will be honest; I did not believe in it. We stayed in Iran for three years; during this period, a number of people impressed upon me the teachings of the Dawoodi Bohra faith including Syedi Mazoon e Dawat, who advised my husband to move out of Iran as there was no mumineen environment in that country to nurse my faith. We moved to Dubai in 1973. It was in Dubai that I attended my first mumineen majlis during Ashara. Something happened…I felt an inexplicable stirring. Then a few days later, on the night of Ashura 1394 (2.1.1974) I had a dream, which turned out to be the turning point of my life. I saw myself sitting in an open ground in Dubai with other mumineen waiting for Imam Husain to arrive. Imam Husain! Suddenly I saw ‘Imam Husain’ on a white horse riding towards the gathering. He kept nearing and when I could finally see clearly, it was none other but Maulana Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb (T.U.S.). He rode, looked at me and went out of my sight. I awoke dazed and in denial. Here I was, believed in none but Aqa Husain and I was seeing him impersonated by the Dai of the Dawoodi Bohras, a faith that I had consistently resisted. I was confused. Show me the right path immediately, I demanded of Allah! Yes, I demanded. I didn’t have to wait long. Three days later, unfolded Dream Two. And this time I round I saw a wizened and venerable old man – I identified this as Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb (AQ) as seen in the photographs on the walls – who told me “Aa sahee raasto chhey”. I awoke, attended to my daughter, slept again, only to see Muqaddas Maula emerge in my dream again to tell me “Aa Dawat-aj sahee raasto chhey!” Saifuddin and I went to Huzurala immediately after. Even before either of us had even spoken a word, he looked up and said, “Hu tamara khwab ma aayo hatho ne? Hawe tamne kai shaq chhey? Hawe to tamne shaq nathi ne?” My first reaction: I wept. Not wept, sobbed. Not sobbed, but put my head on his qadam and purged myself emotionally. I could hear people saying ‘Su karo chho, behen?’, ‘Utho, behen!’ and ‘Aam na thai, behen’ but Huzurala asked them to let things be. ‘Ehne rehva dav’, I heard him say. When I looked up, others around me in Saifee Mahal were fishing for their handkerchiefs. Maula asked my daughter’s name. I replied ‘Tasneem’. He replied: “Naam baraaber chhey”. Huzurala then instructed Shaikh Ebrahim Yamani to record my dream for the benefit of the daawat archives. On the following day, Syedi Mazoon Saheb told us that Huzurala had mentioned my dream and my ‘ikhlaas’ over thaal. Since that day in January 1974, I have been a devout believer. Note. Jumanaben’s great grand father was killed while defending the shrine of Imam Husain in 1801, following which her family name became ‘Shaheedi’. Copy ends can u please translate it in english?
#21 BintAlHoda
Unregistered Member
Posted 30 September 2009 - 12:37 PM They're Muslim enough, especially Bohoras who do practice salat, etc. Definitely they have had an active role in Islamic history . I don't think it's really an issue unless one is considering intermarrying in which case one needs to consider carefully. There is a whole book of Al-Kafi on the succesion to Imam Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, you should read it
#22 Frosty
Member
Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:06 PM 'Aabiss_Shakari', on 04 Jul 2009 - 8:47 PM, said: They offer prayer facing any side which means they do not necessarily face Kaba for offering their prayers.
Is Allah (saw) not the Lord of east and west? Is it not ok to pray in whatever direction if you do not know which direction is facing the Kaba?
#23 culturei
Member
Posted 30 September 2009 - 02:09 PM if they say "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Mohammed Rasulu Allah" then they are muslims
#24 Jondab_Azdi
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Posted 30 September 2009 - 02:53 PM Ayat. Muhammad Hussain Najafi mentioned Aga Khanis (i.e. those who are munkir of dharuriyat ad-deen such as salat, saum etc) as Kafir. Ref: Qawaneen ash-Sharia Vol. 1 w/s
#25 saheb
Member
Posted 30 September 2009 - 03:26 PM The Ismailis I know apart from bohora will not be regarded as muslims. Because they do not pray and do not fast. So I think it is not proper to marry or eat their food.
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already 
..or do you want some loud voice from the sky announcing the next Imam? 
