Malta kamra tad-deputati kumitat permanenti dwar l-affarijiet soċjali

THE CHAIRMAN: Prosit. Ikolli ngħid li qatt ma smajt rapport dwar ir-realtà tal-familji ta' persuni b'diżabilità u fuq il-persuni b'diżabilità nfushom, daqshekk iddettaljat, li fil-fehma tiegħi ma niddejjaqx ngħid li xxukkjani ftit. Huwa tajjeb ħafna. Fil-fatt diġà tlabt lis-Sur Ronald Calleja biex jgħaddili kopja ta’ dak li kont qed taqra. Għax fir-rapport li se nippublikaw effettivament se nirrapportaw xi smajna u nwegħedkom li mhu se nħallu xejn barra minn dak kollu li qed tipproponu intom u l-informazzjoni li qed taqsmu magħna. Għax naħseb li f'xi ħin jew ieħor, dawn irridu nwassluhom.
Nista' nwegħdkom ukoll li kemm fil-ħidma mal-Kunsilli Lokali, kif ukoll fuq livell nazzjonali se ngħinukom kemm jista' jkun. Sta għalikom kemm tridu timbuttaw, biex dak li aħna smajna, ngħinukom biex intom tgħiduh lilhom ukoll. Jiġifieri iva, se nagħmel ħilti kollha - anke fuq livell ta' kariga oħra li għandi - biex kemm jista' jkun mal-Kunsilli Lokali dak kollu li tkellimtu dwaru, rigward aċċessibilità jekk jista' jkun jinftiehem.
Donnu ngħixu f'soċjetà li ħafna drabi qabel ma ġġarrab, ma ssirx konxju ta' xi nuqqas. Qed ngħidilkom hekk, għax minn mindu kelli tarbija u rrid noqgħod insuq il-pram, ġejt konxju ta' kemm-il bankina li nimxu fuqha xi kultant mingħalik tajba, però kemm-il darba trid tinżel biex timxi fit-triq għax fuq il-bankina jew ikun hemm arblu, eċċ. Jiġifieri iva, l-aċċessibilità hija issue partikolari.
Xi ħadd f'isem is-soċjetà tagħna naħseb irid jiskuża ruħu magħkom. Però fl-istess ħin l-iskuża ma jkun fiha l-ebda importanza jekk ma jkollniex l-impenn biex fl-iqsar żmien possibbli, fil-komunitajiet tagħna nirranġaw, dak li llum - grazzi lilkom – aħna llum qed narawh li huwa nieqes.
Fl-edukazzjoni naħseb għandkom punti importanti ferm. Jien ma nsib xejn fuq xiex noġġezzjona jew x'nikkritika mill-proposti li għedtu intom. Jien deputat min-naħa tal-Gvern, imma m'għandix skuża waħda biex ngħid għalfejn għadha ma saritx din jew din m'għandhiex għaliex issir.
Rigward ir-respite, hija realtà enormi li tkellimtu dwarha. Però grazzi li tkellimtu dwarha, għax jien illum li għandi 48 sena, ma kontx inkun konxju ta' din ir-realtà ta’ kemm fiha spiża, meta tieħdu lill-uliedkom ir-respite. Kemm tridu tħallsu għalih, eċċ. Jiġifieri veru hemm ċerti nuqqasijiet.
Għar-rigward l-infrastruttura u l-aċċessibilità. Jiena ngħid li hemm żewġ tipi ta' aċċessibilità. L-ewwel l-aċċessibilità fil-mentalita'. Kemm se nkunu soċjetà li in our mindset - in the way we think - verament se tkun l-aċċessibilità ta' persuna b'diżabilità. Jiġifieri dik naħseb li hija l-ikbar problema ta' aċċessibilità.
Pero' l-aċċessibilità infrastrutturali naħseb li m'għandhiex tkun daqshekk problema, ħlief li jkollna l-flus, u mhux tant il-flus, imma l-ħsieb fit-tul li waqt li qed isir xi ħaġa, issir mill-ewwel aċċessibbli. Għax jekk issir mill-ewwel aċċessibbli għal kulħadd, m'intix se tonfoq iktar flus. Jiġifieri jekk l-istess bankina tkun aċċessibbli jew mhux aċċessibbli, naħseb li se tiswa l-istess flus. Naħseb importanti ħafna li wieħed ikollu dik il-kuxjenza anke fi ħdan il-Kunsilli Lokali.
L-inklużjoni soċjali. Jien naħseb li rridu ninżlu iktar fil-fond u fid-dettall tagħha din l-issue. Jien mhux se ngħid li dan huwa l-aħħar meeting. L-aħħar meeting sta għalina, iva, li nieħdu u nagħmlu dan ir-rapport. Imma kif il-bieraħ kont qed ngħid mal-assoċjazzjoni li tirrappreżenta lin-nanniet - għax ‘ilbieraħ fil-fatt għalaqna s-section fuq in-nanniet - li l-quddiem irridu nitkellmu magħhom fuq anke issues oħra. U magħkom rridu nitkellmu ukoll fuq issues oħra. Jiġifieri din mhux se tkun laqgħa ta’ darba u nieqfu hemm. Wara li nagħmlu dan ir-rapport u ngħadduhulkom - biex l-ewwel ħaġa taraw li fih kollox u t-tieni ħaġa li jkun korrett kif tixtiequ intom - irridu naraw li fl-aħħar mill-aħħar din l-issue tal-inklużjoni soċjali tiġi dealt with, in a very proper way.
Semmejtu li l-liġi għal persuni b'diżabilità għandha tiġi emendata. Naħseb tajjeb li tibdew bil-ħidma - m'hemmx bżonn li tkun daqshekk legali - biex tibdew tixprunaw lilna l-politiċi, fejn hemm meħtieġ li jkun hemm emendi.
Ma nafx jekk bdejtux bil-konsultazzjoni diġà, imma jkun veru tajjeb li nisimgħu mingħandkom stess fejn taħsbu li għandu jkun hemm l-emendi fil-liġijiet ta' persuni b'diżabilità. Għax intom għandkom inside knowledge minħabba l-esperjenzi li għandkom u li l-ebda tekniku legali fl-ebda ministeru ma jista' jagħti l-proposti li tagħtu intom. Sakemm aħna niġu biex nipprintjaw u nippubblikaw ir-rapport tagħna, jekk intom tkunu diġà lħaqtu għamiltu xi ħaġa f'dan ir-rigward, aħna ma niddejqu xejn li lilna tgħadduhulna u nagħmluh bħala annex mar-rapport tagħna.
Nagħlaq hawn il-ħsebijiet tiegħi. Naħseb din hija l-ewwel darba li m'għandix mistoqsijiet x’nagħmel, u m'għandix il-kapaċità li mmerikom. Dawn il-kummenti tagħhom għandna neħduhom u nagħmluhom tagħna f'isimkom. Dak hu l-impenn li qed narana naħdmu bih.
Issa ngħaddi l-kelma lil sieħbi l-Onor. Michael Gonzi.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: Jien xtaqt nistaqsi żewġ domandi. Just two things. Kemm-il laqgħa għamiltu mal-Kunsilli Lokali? U kif tmorru mal-aġenzija 'Appoġġ'?
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: Iktar milli laqgħat mal-Kunsilli Lokali, iktar kien ikollna korrispondenza by email. U hawn forsi jagħti daqsxejn dettalji......
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: Ħalli ngħidlek għalfejn, biex inkun straight. Jien ili fil-parlament issa għaż-żewġ legislaturi. Dawn il-kliem u dawn il-problemi - disgrazzjatament għax parti minnhom naħseb huwa t-tort tagħna - smajnihom ukoll qabel. Il-problema tal-aċċessibilità dejjem kienet hemm però naħseb jien, xi ftit improvement sar. Safejn naf jien, suppost binjiet li jkunu ta' ċertu kalibru bilfors irid ikollhom xi ċertifikat. Fil-fatt kelli kostitwenti li l-permess tagħhom ma ġiex imġedded jew ġie alterat, għax proprju ma kienx hemm aċċessibilità għal persuni b'diżabilità.
Kif semmejtu intom sew, ħafna mill-problemi huma ta' lokalità. Pereżempju, naf li f'San Pawl il-Baħar u Buġibba hemm problemi ovvjament tal-bankini li semmejt. Imma l-Kunsill Lokali ħadem ħafna biex din l-aċċessibilità tirranġa ruħha. Ma nafx lokalitajiet oħrajn, imma importanti naħseb li jsir focus group, area area. Jiġifieri hemm bżonn ta' żewġ min-nies li jikkonsultaw mal-Kunsill Lokali separatament and they pinpoint x'inhuma l-problemi.
L-Appoġġ għandha sehem kbir fuq l-affarijiet kollha li semmejtu, fuq il-familja, eċċ. Kif tmorru mal-Appoġġ? X'inhuma l-problema tal-Appoġġ għax naħseb li l-Appoġġ huwa l-fulcrum tagħkom suppost.
THE CHAIRMAN: L-Onor. Beppe Fenech Adami.
ONOR. BEPPE FENECH ADAMI: Jien ningħaqad ma' sħabi, “grazzi tal-lezzjoni li tajtuna llejla”. Jien naħseb li meta nittrattaw suġġett bħal dan, it all boils down fuq il-valur tas-solidarjetà, Mr Chairman.
Illum kulħadd jitkellem fuq soċjetà ġusta, kulħadd jitkellem li għandna nittrattaw lil kulħadd indaqs. Mentri naħseb li s-soċjetà ġusta hija soċjetà li tivvantaġġja lil dawk li jaħdmu ma min l-iktar huwa fil-bżonn. Jiġifieri jien naħseb li waħda mill-problemi li aħna niffaċċjaw bħala soċjetà, hija li npoġġu lil kulħadd fl-istess keffa, meta fil-verità s-soċjetà hija komposta min-nies li għandhom bżonn għajnuna iktar minn ħaddieħor. U l-ġustizzja tfisser iva, li taġevola lil min għandu bżonn, a skapitu ta' xi ħadd li m'għandux bżonn. Jiġifieri trid issib il-bilanċ.
Jien naħseb li dik hi l-isfida kbira li għandha s-soċjetà moderna tal-lum. Li filwaqt għandna niddipartixxu mill-idea li rridu nittrattaw lil kulħadd indaqs, il-verità hija, li għandna nittrattaw lil dawk li għandhom bżonnijiet speċjali b'iktar enfasi u importanza, minn dawk li m'għandhom bżonn xejn.
Nixtieq nistaqsi mistoqsija, għax fil-presentation tiegħek għedt li kien hemm xi tnaqqis ta' fondi lill-NGOs. Hawn qed tirreferi għall-għaqda tagħkom b'mod partikolari, fejn kontu tirċievu xi fondi u m'għadkomx tirċievuhom? Taħt liema skema kontu tirċievu l-fondi? Jew kontu qed titkellmu fuq NGOs b'mod ġenerali u allura forsi tindikalna b'mod partikolari għal liema NGO kont qed tirriferi?
THE CHAIRMAN: I want to put a question to Ms. Gauci, because when Hon. Gonzi recommended that I should come and see you at your residence, you spoke to me about a particular issue. The issue was with regards disabled children and education services.
I can still remember what you told me about transport problems and how transport people are not so adequately trained. Especially when there are children in their care, some in need of specific circumstances. I would like you to tell us about this.
And also about the training you referred to concerning teachers. You said that sometimes teachers are not trained to be teaching disabled children. Infact you told me that if a nurse isn't present in a classroom, the teacher will not touch a student if he is choking or something else goes wrong.
When I came to your residence and you told me about these cases, I was quite moved. For the first time I became aware of these problems.
Can you, for the sake of this committee’s hearing, which is also recorded, put forward your suggestions again? When I came to your residence, I believe that you put forward some suggestions and they're somehow missing from the script that was read. If you can bring these suggestions to our attention, we can obviously take note of them.
Take your time, whilst the President answers the questions we put to her. (Interruptions) OK she also knows about these suggestions.
Il-problemi fit-trasport tal-iskola, ma tantx ssemmew waqt il-preżentazzjoni. Imma għadni niftakar x'kienu.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: Għax fil-presentation ma mortx fuq punt u elaborajt ħafna fuqu, imma semmejt ħafna punti. Imbagħad kull familja jkollha l-problema speċifiċi tagħha.
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: Fil-fatt fil-presentation, fil-ħin limitat li kellna ppruvajna kemm jista' jkun li ndaħħlu ħafna affarijiet. I mean, kollox fih l-istorja tiegħu. (Interruzzjonijiet)
Jien hawnhekk mhux qed nirrappreżenta lili biss, però qed nirrappreżenta wkoll il-familji li wkoll huma membri tal-għaqda tagħna. Bħalma nafu, id-diżabilitajiet huma differenti u l-livelli tad-diżabilitajiet huma differenti ħafna, u allura ppruvajna nieħdu l-punti li għalissa huma essenzjali u kruċjali, li forsi għadhom ma ġewx indirizzati.
If I maybe can just answer Onor. Vassallo’s last question, which was with regards to school transport and teachers. In fact we were going to mention them in our initial presentation, but at the moment there is the special schools reform taking place. In fact, my son who attends one of the specialised schools have welcomed the change of having primary and secondary in one school. There also was a change in staff, where more staff has now been trained, and now the teachers are more concentrated on the needs of the children.
So yes, we can understand. I'm sure not everything will be perfect and to our liking. But we feel that we should give some more time and see, as this reform has just started from this scholastic year. (Interruzzjonijiet)
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: Some points which you have said are not acceptable regarding certain attitudes of certain people. I mean you have to address these as well and have to point them out. It’s very important that people who are taking care of these children, are well trained. There can be no excuses, and people who are taking care of these children cannot say “I'm not trained to do that”. That is something which is not acceptable. Either we have trained people who know how to deal with these patients, or they're just normal teachers. I want to specify this, because it is very important the way the training is done.
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: Infact Jutta is also a member on the school council of one of the schools. Parents were putting pressure as some members of the school staff were refusing to do some basic things to our children. I must say, that now the problem has been tackled and now we actually know that staff are being trained and people are also specialising during the course of the learning....
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: That is the most important thing.
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: What Ronald also wanted to point out, was that this does not stop here. We are only talking about the special schools here. But we have also to remember about the mainstream schools. Again, the Learning Support Assistants (LSA) all need to be specialised. The ideal way would be for a person to be assigned according to the disability of the student. .
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: When you are saying - I mean that is the ideal situation, the maximum that you can get - for a person to be trained for a particular patient. But do you think it is feasible to do that?
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: Yes, it can be feasible. Once you are aware of a condition, that already helps. Let us say we are talking about an LSA who has to deal with an autistic person, at least he or she is more aware of the challenging behaviour the person has, and would know what support to give.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: I agree with that.
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: What we also need to ensure is - as probably this is common to most students - that LSAs are supporting students.
I also work with students with disabilty at the University. And it is very common amongst these disabled students to realise, that during the previous years in schools, the facilitator - known today as LSA - was actually doing all their school work for them. That's not support. I mean it looks nice and these students get their achievements, and also in some cases came first in a subject. But the truth is that they don't even know what the subject is.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: My problem with LSAs, is that there's no continuity in the attention these students are being given. What does this mean? This means, in the first year they have got a certain facilitator, in the second year they have got a different facilitator, then in the third year they have got yet a different facilitator and so on. This is what is happening.
We need to have a history of continuity of care or some centralised system where we know what's happening to the child and how he is getting on. There should be a form of communication with the facilitator. I don't know if you understand me.
Irid ikun hemm xi ħaġa li fiha għandi l-istorja ta' dan it-tifel ta’ kif inhu sejjer fl-iskola, The communication line with the teachers is missing.
IS-SA MARQUITA MANGIAFICO: Infact we have mentioned that issue in the presentation. That’s why there is a need for an Individual Education Plan (IEP) at specialised schools and at the Resource Centre. Each child, each student needs to have an IEP. I know that every student at Primary Level in the mainstream school has an IEP. Unfortunately - although I stand to be corrected - this stops once they go to Secondary Level. Ideally the IEP continues as a whole history until post-secondary or even until tertiary education, if the student manages to enter University. If not, the idea of the IEP is to follow each and every person until adulthood, even in the Adult Training Centre. That is the only way we can monitor that a student is having what he really needs. This basic instrument can achieve.
There is also a need to have specialised personnel to work with the student. Also with regards to facilitators, to my knowledge, a student has his or her facilitator change every two years. And in a way this does make sense. I have found situations, where after five or six years with the same facilitator, students tend to become too dependent on him or her, that even when they sit for an 'O' level exam, they want their facilitator with them. And that way we are not teaching or giving the student, the real picture of life: Listen there has to be changes. In some cases there are conditions where it would take longer than two years.
On the other hand, I know of very good practices where this has been taken into consideration and the same LSA remains with the student.
I don't know if my colleague Mr Calleja wants to add something.
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA (Segretarju Informazzjoni): In practice, different schools have different policies. Sometimes they change the LSA, even after one year. So after an LSA learns how to get on with his student, the next scholastic year, he will not have the same student.
THE CHAIRMAN: Skużani qed titkellem fuq specialised schools, jew qed titkellem fuq il-mainstream?
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: I'm talking about inclusive schools in the mainstream.
The difficulty is when a disabled student goes to a secondary school and education is of a higher level Form II, Form III, Form IV and Form V, the LSAs are not specialised in the subjects that are being taught in these years. So if the other students do not find any difficulty, they can move on, but if a student with disability cannot keep up with the same pace, (Interuzzjoni)
THE CHAIRMAN: Għax m'għandux il-facilitator addattata?
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: No. It could be that a disabled student does not understand everything from the first time, and he needs someone to repeat it all again. It’s difficult for him to understand immediately. He cannot reach the level as fast as the others, but he can reach a certain level.
If the LSA is not qualified in that subject, to change and simplify the material ..... (Interruptions) The LSA has to be knowledgable in different subjects. She has to be proficient in dealing with the student’s disability and in the subjects themselves. It is something which gets harder, and for the disabled child it gets more difficult.
Let us say the student cannot write then the LSA needs to adapt things. Or if a student cannot see well, the LSA needs to magnify things, or change them into some way that he can understand. The problems get complex all the more in higher grades. There's also quite a lack in support.
In the end, parents have to assist with the homework all the time, and stop doing other duties so that the child can go on.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: I agree. But what are you suggesting? Imagine a class of 20 to 30 students with one or two teachers and a facilitator. Some students being a bit cruel, and with a child with a writing problem. What are you suggesting? I mean I would suggest......
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: I know it is difficult. But my idea would be .......
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: It’s a major problem.
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: For example software can help. A school builds up a library of adapted material for each subject. This can be also part of the LSA’s job, in conjunction with the teacher. Once they set up certain material, it can then be put on the computer and magnified. When the material is prepared, it can be adapted and used for other students as well.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: But you have to suggest these things through a discussion ....
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: But it is difficult. There are even certain schools, which don't have the basic equipment for IT.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: But it's getting better every year.
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: Even if you use formal agencies, it takes years. It’s a big problem.
There is another reason in having this presentation. We also want to point out, that other persons are getting affected and not only the disabled ones. Because a disabled person has a family - brothers, sisters, parents – and one way or another, all of them are getting affected.
This means that there is a good percentage of society who are affected as well. According to statistics, 10% of us have mobility problems. So in addition to these 10%, there are also those persons who care for them. They can be family and friends.
This means that improvement in for example accessibility, is for everyone. As things aren’t just made for disabled persons.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: Yes, but what was my initial question? You have been saying this for the past – how many years?
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: For the last ten years.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: What is stopping change? Personally - and I’m telling the truth - I've seen an improvement. My question is this, could this be a locality problem? Certain localities have funds. I know where you used to live, I don't know if you're still living there, but I know the state of that road there. It has been ages since anything was done and they are terrible, I know. So, it is a locality problem, OK there could be funds, etc.
Have you discussed this issue - if there is a problem because of disability - with the Local Council? They are the prime movers in each locality, for accessibilty with regards to pavements, and what nots.
It’s very important. In these ten years if nothing has been done, is it the government's fault? Can we do something more? First thing let’s try and find a solution.
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: I think there is a solution.
We are finding problems where new roads are being built or pavements are being changed and we pinpointed them out either to the Local Councils or to the ADT. Sometimes they do take action but sometimes they don’t. We cannot keep on pinpointing each and every case one by one! The situation has remained the same: the guidelines are not being respected.
ONOR. MICHAEL GONZI: I agree fully.
IS-SUR RONALD CALLEJA: There are many contractors and Local Councils. Also Secretaries of the Local Councils change all the time. The problem is that nobody is certifying the finished work. If someone issues a certificate for each job to say that this pavement is in compliance with the guidelines, the problem will be solved.
We know of many instances where workers construct a new pavement and then they reconstruct it again to add ramps. Why? That’s a waste of resources: both money and time. Something must be done overall.