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811 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:38am Subject: Getting physical > Thanks for the information which reaffirms that my need - desperate at times for women and their love is due to those built up toxins. The problem that crosses my mind often is what if I am really in love with this woman and will never be happy unless we have a relationship. I also find the longing, co-dependency, occurring around other women just not as strong. It makes such a difference knowing the cause. >
> My redirecting is going well I think but I'm finding that they don't come as often. When I first started I redirected once daily and in a big. Now I go for about two days and in that time start non-depressed, happy and then gradually over the two days the need for co-dependency increases and depression builds. I then redirect (in a big way) and the cycle begins again. >
> I've also noticed an improvement in my concentration and I am able to work through problems much quicker. I am a trainee computer programmer/analyst which involves constant problem solving and demands concentration. This as you can imagine is very difficult when depressed, but since redirecting I have noticed a gradual improvement. >
> I know there is a way to go yet and I still suffer from many symptoms but its good to see an improvement already. Just one question though, when redirecting I'm not much in the way of physical anger mainly crying and harsh words, does being physical improve the detox? I would find it difficult to be physical as it not really one of my personally traits. >
> A Tip - If you are in a situation when you want to shout as load as possible and cant, such as the toilets at work, mime the words with your mouth and imagine that you are screaming as load as possible. It better than just imagining it I find. Paul. You will be happy even if not in a relationship. That's a promise. Getting physical does help the detox, but it sounds like you are further along and perhaps you don't need to get as physical as in the beginning. When the craving for romance returns you might try to get more physical. Ellie http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 812 From: Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 4:51pm Subject: codependent double-binds < ----------------------------- Dear TW, Before I discuss the issue of relationships while redirecting, I must say that you have articulated very well the classic double-bind situation that codependents create for themselves and others. The good news is that you are conscious of it; the bad news is that you thus feel the brunt of the double-bind on yourself, best expressed by the saying "You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't." I want to discuss this issue in depth because it bears directly on a major problem many people have in redirecting, which is being oblivious to the emotional abuse perpetrated by a codependent parent or spouse who puts them in a double bind situation. Such abuse should be recognized as such and justifiable anger redirected to the abuser, but so many people have been hoodwinked to believe that it is not abuse at all. In some cases, the abuse is actually believed to be love or caring or something the very opposite of abuse. Let me start with a simple example. A middle aged wife has a birthday coming up but she is depressed about aging and she tells her husband: "Please don't get me anything for my birthday; it's just another day and I'd just as soon forget it, so don't remind me." This puts the husband in a double bind situation. If he does get her a birthday present, then he is going against her wishes; however, if he follows her wishes, and doesn't get her anything, then she feels rejected. So no matter what he does, he cannot please her. In fact, she guarantees that he will feel badly no matter what he does. But her goal is not to make him feel badly; her goal is to control him through her emotional manipulation. That is a good definition of codependency -- the attempt to control other people by emotionally manipulating them. Now these manipulations take various forms and children who grow up in dysfunctional families will play definite recognizable roles when victimized by such codependent parents. Two roles I want to single out are: the Family Hero and the Rebel. Often times the Family Hero role is played by the eldest child, who is codependently conditioned to achieve great things out in the world to make the parents proud. The parents put the child into a double bind like this. They say or imply in so many words: "Oh we have done so much for you and you are so smart and talented. You are going to repay us by achieving out great things out in the world. You are going to make us proud and then we can brag about you to everyone else who didn't have as good a son or daughter as you." So the Family Hero is faced with the dilemma. If I go out and achieve great things for my parents, I will finally win their love and approval. If I don't achieve great things, then I will be letting them down and I will feel very guilty. Either I do what they want even if I feel like a fraud to myself or I don't do what they want and I feel guilty and ashamed. So you see, it's a lose-lose situation for the Family Hero while it's a win-win situation for the codependent parents. Now what about the Rebel child? Many times, the Rebel is the 2nd child who can't measure up to the firstborn Hero. The Rebel becomes the scapegoat for the family dysfunction, acting out the terrible things that the rest of the family represses. The Rebel is therefore punished or shunned or otherwise overtly abused. What is the double bind here? THERE IS NONE!!! And that's the whole point of this discussion. The Rebel child knows he is overtly punished or condemned. His or her anger is right there. It is unambiguous. There is no mistake about it. It is easily seen and remembered. If you are a Rebel child, I bet that you have a much easier time redirecting than if you are a Family Hero. Why? Because you don't suffer as much from the double bind manipulation. Family Heroes grow up believing that they were not abused, that they were favored by their parents and that they have a responsibility to repay that debt to their parents who did so much for them. Yet the Family hero is just as much a victim of abuse as the Rebel Child. But the problem is that the Family Hero is in deep denial about that abuse. The Family Hero will not recognize that he or she is being abused. Instead the Family Hero thinks the abuse is love. The Family Hero has just as much toxic anger as her Rebel brother, but the Rebel confronts the parents directly with his anger and he is punished severely for it. This lesson is not lost on the Family Hero, who represses her anger and would not dare to ever confront her parents with her anger. That's what the nasty evil Rebel brother does. If the Family Hero expresses anger, it can never be against the parent; it must be directed (i.e., misdirected) against other people, especially other people at work, at those people who stand in the way of the Family Hero working relentlessly to bring fame and good reputation to the parents. But such anger must never be directed against the parents. Never! Never! Now do you Family Heroes out there see why it is so difficult to redirect anger at your parents? You find it almost impossible to do so. As SC said it so eloquently last Tuesday, you even feel sick about it. _____________________________ < _____________________________ I don't mean to single you out, SC, because there are so many others out there like you, but you wrote so well about the dilemma you face, the double-bind dilemma of a Family Hero who has been so emotionally bamboozled by her parents that she even gets sick at the thought of redirecting her justifiable anger to them for their emotional manipulation of her. But that's what codependency is all about -- control of others through emotional manipulation. I wonder if you have a Rebel sibling, SC. If so, then that Rebel is the only one in your family allowed to have anger at the parents. That's the Rebel's function in the dysfunctional family. That's why it's so much easier for the Rebels to catch on to redirecting anger when they find their way to Ellie's list. And that is why the Family Heroes have so much difficulty with the concept of redirecting in the first place. What are the detox crises of Family Heroes? You feel emotionally flat (I believe the shrinks call it "dysthemia"); you feel a gnawing grief, but it's a grief you always keep at bay. You feel like you are a fraud, a faker, an imposter juts going through the motions of life. No matter what you achieve out in the world it is never enough and it is never something you can enjoy. You are never satisfied by anything you do. You cannot enjoy the simple things in life; you are driven relentlessly by the need to achieve, or else you will feel guilty. But if you have trouble with the idea of redirecting, ask yourself these questions: Who is responsible for making me feel this way? Who put me in this double bind situation, where I am damned if I do and damned if I don't? The answer is: it was not you; it was someone else who not only abused you, but also "put a spell" on you so you would live the rest of your life in complete and total denial of their abuse. So if you're a Family Hero out there, turning all that anger in against yourself, this is where you finally get a chance to turn that anger around and redirect it back to "you know who." And it's not you anymore; it's them. So give 'em hell!!! Tom PS TW, I'll get to your romance issue in another post. Thanks so much for inspiring my sermon on codependent double binds. 813 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 7:15am Subject: Trust your body > Ellie, > I wanted to let you know that your responses have been very helpful to me. I am coming along fine in my detox, although there are times I lose sight of the fact that I need to trust my body. It fills me with joy to know that I am doing this right, and I have already noticed a difference in the way I react to people, and to my own thoughts and feelings. > SM
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 814 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 7:32am Subject: Scary detrox crises During a detox crisis you may experience some scary physical reactions, e.g. a tightness in your chest or pressure on your chest and throat. You may shiver and feel like you are dying. This is probably a sympathetic nervous system reaction, similar I found to the feeling of 'heartburn'. It can happen during a detox of food substances or a detox of the neurochemicals that store repressed anger. While it can be scary and uncomfortable, it is part of the healing process. You should find each time this happens that your body naturally relaxes. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 7:35am Subject: Re: ACCEPTING THE PROCESS > Dear Sharrhan, >
> Thanks very much for your messages -- I'll definitely check out more of the Archives. And your perspective is encouraging; my therapist and others are also echoing your advice that if I stay with this, great things can happen. > In previous depressions I just wanted to "cure" the depression, make it go away quick with medication so I could get on with my life. It's only this time that I'm seeing that the greatest gift I could give myself is not see the depression is this horrible, foreign, interfering obstacle that must be overcome at all costs, but as part of the healing if I let it be. > > Take care, > > Tony
From: Tom Mellett> Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 6:16am Subject: another bumper sticker ___________________________________________ CODEPENDENCY: THE MOTHER OF ALL ADDICTIONS! ____________________________________________ 817 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:30am Subject: RE: another bumper sticker > > Want to repost that with a title: Codependency-Mother of Addictions So people find it in the Archives. I'm going to add back something about codependency in the earthlink version. Ellie
> ___________________________________________ >
> CODEPENDENCY: THE MOTHER OF ALL ADDICTIONS! >
> ____________________________________________ Ellie http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 818 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:31am Subject: Archives=Messages > How do you get to the archives? http://www.egroups.com/messages/Depression-Anxiety > >Ellie > >http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway > >http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html > >http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety > >
>
> Sometimes I have feelings of my life being unreal -- not literally unreal, but just that I'm a little outside of myself. Psychologists would term this "dis-association", and I know it's just me wishing this was all just a nightmare. It's me crying out "Please, I wish this wasn't my life! Let it go away, let this all be a bad dream!" But I gently bring myself back to myself and realize this is my life and it deserves to be nurtured and healed. >
> I yearn for relief from the depression; I especially have been shunning socializing lately. I just feel like I can't really be present with someone else because all day my whole body and mind are screaming about how much pain and loneliness I'm in. >
> I have been reading the Archives and this is of some help. But I am really longing to see some of the results described by others in my own body and mind. I'll just keep going. I have a lot of faith. >
> TW Your courage and faith will bring you permanent relief. It IS a nightmare you are living, but nightmares are healing events, and if you redirect during them you will have peace of mind soon. You might find comfort in Tom's Archive/Message 670 Hurricane Detox. As long as you are redirecting you can stay in the eye of the storm. Ellie http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 820 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:54am Subject: Re: Getting physical > I've been getting more and more physical with my redirecting but have yet to experience a "high" of more than a half-hour or so in terms of relief from depression and responding differently to others. I've been redirecting daily, physically and mentally, for about two and a half weeks now, almost three. So I just keep redirecting, know that the depression will lift eventually, and doing my best to get through it. >
> TW Those half hour highs are a manicky kind of high, and will get less and less, and you won't miss them. The true euphoria of post flood is freedom from anxiety and distress. You will have relief from depression, peace of mind, and respond differently to others. Even if a minor storm comes your way you will deal with it easily and return to calm waters. Ellie http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 821 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 0:02pm Subject: RE: relationships while in detox > A few questions: > This weekend I just felt awful. I redirected a LOT, but did not feel much relief from depression (I felt a little clearer-headed for about 20 minutes after intense physical redirecting, but that was it). I wanted to sleep a lot (which I did, about 10 hours a night, sometimes more) and cancelled all my social appointments. The only thing I did was my karate class, which I find very good for exercise and focus. I got a haircut and paid some bills, did laundry, cleaned up a little around the apartment and cleaned my dishes. > I also got some sun, as I know sunlight can be helpful for depression. >
> Is there any advice you would give for what to do when you're in a deep, deep depression? I know you have said that sometimes we just have to put up with the depression and trust that it will pass. I wonder about socializing. I keep redirecting, but I wonder if I should push myself more to see friends when I feel so awful. However, I cancelled out on socializing because I felt like I would just feel awful and would be poor company, unable to enjoy myself, not much conversation, and I didn't want to have to hide the pain I was feeling. Would you advise socializing or not socializing when feeling intense detox symptoms? Everything in me says I just want to be alone when feeling this pain. I don't have much to give or to offer anyone else right now, and being with someone else just reminds me of that, and reminds me of how lousy I feel. >
> My other question is about over-sleeping and feeling exhausted. How much should we fight this impulse while going through detox? Is it helping the process to sleep 10-12 hours a night, or should we try to stay awake as long as possible to attain a more regular time asleep (i.e. 8-9 hours)? > TW
Ellie http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway http://homepages.nyu.edu/~er26/toxicmind.html http://www.egroups.com/group/Depression-Anxiety 822 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:23am Subject: Incerased mood swings > Hi, > I have been doing the redirecting for about a week and a half now. One of my major problems I have been seeming to run into is that I work for my mom (one of the people I am redirecting towards...well her sickness). It has been very hard for me to be in the same work environment with her while I'm having all these crazy thoughts and angry feelings lately. I can't even look her in the eyes. I think she is noticing something strange and it has been affecting me--like the whole time I'm at work I just can't wait to get home and away from her, and then when I do finally get home I am feeling a lot of guilt. I have actually been reconsidering getting a different job because of this. Do you think these feelings will pass, or is this in any way interrupting my process of redirecting? Another thing...am I suppose to actually feel worse while I am doing this? Because I have been more depressed than ever and am seeming to start to have panic attacks, and a whole lot of anxiety. I just recently started having panic attacks within the last year but I think alot of it had to do with the relationship I was in, but now that I am out of the relationship, they are still here and since I started doing this, they have seemed to get worse. I am wondering if I am doing myself more harm than good. > J.L.
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