Nifflas Enters Chat

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**** Nifflas Enters Chat ****


Hello Nifflas!

Hello? You're supposed to scream in terror!


but... you are AWSOME!

Oh, thank you :)

how can I be afraid of you?



The Goomba Eingine is HARD!

going backwards is HARD!

not destroying the timestream is HADR!

but like it!

*but I like it!


I'm not Nifflas, I'm his evil clockwork simulacra.


;_ ;

**** KetchupMaster Leaves Chat ****

Bye KetchupMaster!

Hi Nifflas - how's Night Game coming these days?

Release in September :D

To be honest, it was months since I worked on it. I was always ahead of schedule, I've spent the last while waiting for the port to be complete.

Very nice :) I just saw a post about it, when someone else got me to read Nicalis' post about the Cave Story translation.

On the upside, since I'm basically just waiting, I started a new game in the meantime.


I've promised that this one will be for PC

(that's my condition for signing with a company or publisher)

i was about to ask if there was a chance itd be on wii again

Nice to know that you're not leaving the Click community behind now that you're a published developer? :)

Ah, no, I'm not leaving it behind :D


If in theory, NG sells well, I'll allocate a buffer for MMF2 stuff (extensions 'n stuff)

I hope I'll be able to <-- this is a video of the new game


Since it's unfinished, I just put some KS music over the video though

erm, Knytt music

Atm it's all MMF2

Really! That's... incredible, actually. The vectory movement looks like nothing I've seen in MMF2 before. The setting looks pretty Another World-like.

Thanks! The characters are animated in Anime Studio Pro. The girl has around 600 frames of animation

It's recognizably your style (most quickly summed up as "glowy bits"), but in a completely different sort of graphic style at the same time...

Oh, and all sceneries are actually photographs put in 10 layers

(although there's one tile layer)

Im going to make some icing flowers for a cake


ooooh i have 2 favs

Nifflas that looks incredible!

It's my first attempt to make a graphically advanced game

nifflas, how you made things move really big in front of the actual game is awesome!

well your first attemt is your most amazing so far

Doesn't it seem kind of a waste, if it's all in MMF so far and will not be released for PC :)


Ah, don't worry :D I won't sign unless the contract says PC


Ah :)

I owe all the people who donated that

I had to take the chance to get NG out on the Wii even if it would have to be exclusive

Just goes to show the power of MMF2

its power is maximum

I'm having some problems with MMF2 though

it's power is ouside imagination


No, it's not :(


The system relies on external files. All data is external



even enemy programming 'n stuff

well that's great!

that's awsome!

but it's just that iterating through objects using fastloops is too slow.

That looks brilliant, and your style is as good as ever.


it's awesome

and i'm... jealous


If you e.g. spread a value over 10 objects and iterate through them, MMF2 must actually make 100 comparasions to filter out the objects.

Maybe when the New Faster fastloops objct is done that will be solved :)

yes, that's right, sadly

MMF2 should have a built in object looping like OINC's Peer Looping

so that it only makes 1 check per loop

I'm having a lot of trouble with that. This game is heavily optimized, I use less code for all this than a lot of simple beginner MMF2 projects, but I can't optimize it much further, and the lack of "for each" and sub-events is still eating too much CPU.

I did investigate some time ago about making a loop-object extension

I couldn't work out a way, and there's no guarantee it'd be any quicker due to function call overhead

**** Eliyahu Leaves Chat ****


Bye Eliyahu!

(but above certain number of objects, yes it would definitely be quicker)

Mind you, I only investigated in MMF 1.5, perhaps it's more feasible in MMF 2

The main problem are not actually the loops, it's that each time you compare an object's ID (on every iteration in every loop), every ID of every object is compared.


It would easily be solved with either "for each" or sub-conditions

cause then I'd only need to use the "on loop" command once.

* Nifflas is having great hopes for MMF3 in this area

* ChrisB too

vertigoelectric I like the logo for fangame!

Thanks. I can't seem to get it to appear for me.

it shows fine for me on the project page

**** Eliyahu Enters Chat ****

Hello Eliyahu!


why does nifflas has a grey dot?

While you were gone Niff got a ball

that means VIP


I'm going to make a game over the summer, but I don't think I can do it in MMF2 for performance reasons (and because I eventually want to have multiplayer, and I want to use technologies that I can guarantee are mature, no offence to Ja mie)

I created WaDF and NG, so logically I have balls

next summer?

Hopefully I can feed my experience from that into MMF3 somehow

The summer which is over at the end of this month ;)

Sounds like a good idea.

I personally hope that MMF3 will be a little bit of a fresh start. If you think about it, a lot of actions and conditions in MMF2 points right back to Klik & Play. They're all not thought out in the most optimal way. Mixed 0-based and 1-based, and a sound system that results in digital pops if you don't do your own voice allocation.

It's controversial to say, but I'd want CT to drop the backwards compatibility.

I said much the same before MMF2 :) I think it needs to be done sometime


For once, think through all the features, and see if they can be arranged in a more optimal way. It's better for both beginners and advanced users.

I would have to agree, the 0-based mixed with 1-based indexes get annoying and extremely frustrating

Having a 15-year-old codebase is definitely taking its toll, though the foundations were quite good


I think it'd also be much faster to develop starting from scratch. Y+F have had to contort the runtime on a few occasions to get things to work

Just looking at the difficulties porting to Java and HWA proves it, it is taking a long time

Getting things largely right the first time has its disadvantages :)

I know it's a lot for two programmers to do, but even so, it drags on a looooong time.


I think that the extension difficulty pretty much killed the backward compatibility of MMF2 anyway... although the release of the first bonus pack did go some way to reversing that.

sure but I don't think Y+F had planned in 1993 many of the things that ended up in MMF2 even

a lot is user input

>Eliyahu: :O

It seems that a difficulty is that it has to focus on two different audiences, now... the beginner game-makers who need things like the insta-save/load features and more automation, and the high-end users who need more optimization and things that are more similar to programming concepts.


I have found out myself that after the first few years I have barely used any of the preloaded movements

and I havent used any of MMF2's sprites in at least a year

It's tricky, but in some cases I feel that trying to make things too simple can actually get in the way of making things simple.

The two groups do meet in several places though (object loop is the most basic example of something that would be useful for beginners for simplicity and experts for performance)

If you special case too many things you are sure to have an impedance mismatch when mixing them together

and since programming is mixing lots of different things together, you are worse off :)

it'd be nice if TGF3 turned out a lot different than MMF3

They do... it's more things like... on the forums, the first thing that a lot of people are advised to do is not to use bits of MMF2! (Such as the infamous standard platform movement, the mouse movement...)

more beginner oriented

I believe CT should just ship a bar of chocolate with MMF 3 and then everyone would be happy


but it might melt

**** RickyRombo Enters Chat ****

A couple of valiums...

I don't actually think the platform movement is too bad, it just needs to be used in a non-obvious way (invisible detector object)

Hello RickyRombo!

Rickyrombo was here?

holy buckets!

Oh i thought it said he left




HI! :D


copy didn't work



I'd even go as far as saying ditch the pre-built movements and come up with a way to get movements as event sheets (that uses it's built in variables that's not seen outside the movement sheet). This way, beginners would still have their pre-defined movements, but the community could develop them in MMF itself rather than the CT staff having to hard-program them.

good idea

hmm? Seems I've joined in the middle of a conversation...

then you would load these event sheets?



That implies that... well, there's a thought. Custom actions for objects...! Taking the place of the use of fastloops for function calls...

Yeah. You'd probably be able to load event sheets from external files, or from a "movement" directory where you can add many ones.

If they would carry their own variables, you'd not have to allocate alterable values for it.

* RickyRombo thinks he is slowly becoming a spammer

I would go as far as allow extensions to be built that way, if possible (basic extensions nonetheless)

Event "includes" would be wonderful, I think that's probably MMF's single largest weak spot at this point...

* RickyRombo :o

I personally don't see a conflict between advanced and easy to use. Everything just needs a slight re-think.

The event editor can be very powerful, it's just held over from a much simpler time and hasn't expanded enough


I still think that a text-mode event editor would be great. But then it gets clouded up with scripting and the whole thing collapses...

and save to xml :D

I would veto the text mode event editor if possible


save to xml, definitely :)


I don't like text editor idea

**** RickyRombo Leaves Chat ****

I will not rest until MMF is compatible with version control

Bye RickyRombo!

he's coming back



* Eliyahu reinstalls RickyRombo

that doesn't mean I can't say bye!

installation failed


* Andrew hopes ChrisB can go without sleep for longer than most

Well, the save-to-XML gives many of the same advantages I'm thinking of - just a way to be able to move things in and out and edit them more... manually...

6 years and counting :(

**** RickyRombo Enters Chat ****

ok I can't do it

Hello RickyRombo!

the installation came back to success!

I can't leave


I'm using SVN just now for MMF2, just for a project backup (and it sort of makes sense for my external files).

Can't do what?

* RickyRombo is addicted

well it could be any text file format really, xml can be a bit bloaty but it has wide scale acceptance

It shouldn't be able to be editted in text, but exported to text, perhaps an option to specify the type.

if you can edit it in text it would open up a lot of reuse and addon tool options + version control

honestly .txt would work :P but it'd be nice to have some formatting


SVN is about the only usuable system for MMF (and binaries in general).

And auto-generation of events by other programs...

But the ability to use MMF in large projects is hampered until it has more granuarity

* Eliyahu goes to party in the fish tank

I hope someone's logging this :)

It is pretty (well, very) monolithic as it stands...

Why does every game have to have a gaming network program that tells about cool new features

the games for windows live is so useless


How separate would you want to make it - a file for every frame, event sheet, object?


well, depending on how event sheets are implemented (separate please!), they could all be quite different...

Andrew - you need a /join command so when you quit you can join again

It'd be nice to have all the graphics stored externally, even.

or you could just click a button

I actually think Construct has some neat ideas about that. I don't like Construct and will stick to MMF, but I think they have some interesting solutions that could be taken (since they obviously got plenty from MMF)

RR if you quit you wouldnt be able to type commands =/



why isn't my fangame logo showing up on the projects list page

but could "offline"

yeah, certainly, though they suck hard in other areas :)


" I hope someone's logging this :)" I will :)


* Ravenius is off to bed

sorry I was getting lemonade


**** Ravenius Leaves Chat ****

Bye Ravenius!

my fangame logo shows on the project page but not the project LIST page

I haven't looked at them in a while, Nifflas, but I was secretly planning to try to remake a recent project in it and see what was different... forgetting the Construct embargo for the moment, can you say what you didn't like about it compared to MMF2?

Oh, well I wouldn't know because I'm BANNED :(

for no reason too

LB there was a reason

Andrew is there an 0.9c?? Eliyahu is lying to me I think

oh, now it's working

It doesn't seem stable enough, but my main problem is that they decided to make it 1-based. That's just wrong.


i uploaded as JPG this time

RR you fell for it

they think I did something to Jon's article

LB, you're banned?


yeah, so is Eliyahu

Heresy! Burn the 1-based-believers!

LB there is a reason, the IP matched yours

eli had is account removed

i saw him request it

how do they know the IP didn't just refresh to match the one that messed it up?

I asked Jon to deletify it =D

The main problem with it is that values are 0 by default. A sinewave goes from -1 to 1. 5 mod 5 is 0, not 1. Maths are definitely 0 based, so it's horrible to have 1-based conditions.

it sees a ton of refreshes?

erm, expressions X)

hey eli, did you fav my project?



Hi Nifflas!


Hey Jeff


someone did

i wonder who

I didn't see you sneak in!



i hvae two faves... LB and ?


Jeff, you saw the Q video, yes?

hey LB

hey vertigoelectric

hey Eliyahu

wait a minute

do you have to be a TDC member to fav projects?



or can i ask my friends to go check it out


oh well

makes sense tho


why does my logo have a '' text overlaying it?


most of them do

vertigoelectric because it's on

i see one that isn't though


which one?

hasslevania 2

ones with a person that's black means they don't have a logo

is that what is is vertigoelectric?

*it is

nah they're using a logo

anyway, i'm gonna take a break from my PC

i need to

you guys should check out my project page

i submitted a download....

it's pending though

here's a direct link

talk to yo later


vertigoelectric, just checked with my hacking powers, Hasllvania 2 doesn't have a logo

well it shows one on the list

I'll check tha game!


LB please let me know what you think, and fav it if you enjoy it

it shows as a person who's skin is 0,0,0 RGB


that means no logo

i see an image that says "hasslevania 2" in red text, and a sub-title below it, then some character

but anyway

gotta go for a little while

k bye!

**** vertigoelectric Leaves Chat ****



Windows just freaked out

hang on

Uploading the newest ZOMBIE TAG :D :D :D


I know I have linked to this before, but watch in HQ:

It's awesomeness in it's purest form

* Andrew hopes its not Rick

Ah, it's not :)

I'd not involve mr. Astley in something like this.

Eliyahu and LB -> newest Zombie Tag

I have to go soon


no I don't

want to test it?

**** rickyg Enters Chat ****

ricky! :D



thats hilarious

Wow Vertigoelectric's game is way glitched out!

its hecka funny

**** Crazy_Ivan Enters Chat ****

Hello Crazy_Ivan!


This is the most I've ever seen in Gwerdy

the more people in here, the less they talk

I know, And when there are like 5 ppl the talk is endless




I got school bout know, so I'm going on /away


* rickyg feels like buying a virtual consol game for his wii

* chrilley gives Adam a welcome-back-shoryuken to the chin

\( ' <')/

Jeff is lurking around Gamebuilder

i see him


I was there

but not now :(

if i never refresh, it will always say you are there

How do you always manage to spy on people when they go for a site to five minutes...? Every single time I visit TDC for about four seconds a month...

haha RG

* Adam gives Chrilley a flower


* Adam needs to contact mr Rehn

* chrilley puts it in his mouth and tangos all the way to China


Hooray, my transforms page doesn't work.

Well, time to go.


take care

stay behind the yellow line

at the station

* DavidN tosses a flower to Adam and exeunt(s)

**** DavidN Leaves Chat ****

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