Aa history Lovers 2006 moderators Nancy Olson and Glenn F. Chesnut page
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IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3322. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital
From: John S. . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/10/2006 7:51:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII As I read the literature (especially ‘The Doctor's Opinion') the first page of the first of the two letters on page xxv (4th ed) it states clearly: "In
the course of his third treatment he acquired certain ideas concerning a possible means of recovery." It has always been my understanding that he only made 3 trips to Charlie Town's hospital. In ‘Bill's Story' on page 7 he describes what I believe to be his first trip to Town's when he says: "My brother-in-law is a physician, and through his kindness and that of my mother I was placed in a nationally-known hospital for the mental and physical rehabilitation of alcoholics." Further down on that same page he relates: "After a time I returned to the hospital." On page 8 he relates that: "on ‘Armistice Day' (November 11th) 1934 I was off again." Then finally on page 13 he states: "At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens." This would appear to this old drunk to be the ‘third and final' time he went to Town's hospital.
Towns Hospital were paid for by his brother-in-law, Dr. Strong.
George
++++Message 3323. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking? From: Ken Ring . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/11/2006 8:56:00 AM
From: "Mike Aycock" Subject: Re: Are there recordings of Lois Wilson speaking?
and Al-Anon taping that has several different recordings of Lois W. http://www.gstl.org/ Go to their site map and scroll down to Al-Anon history to start. (Gopher State Tape Library, established 1974).
Clyde B.
From: Chris Budnick . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:00:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Here is an interesting link I found: http://www.freemancarpenter.com/ Chris B. Raleigh, NC ______________________________
> Again," written under the pen name of "Freeman." > It is signed in the front "Clyde Bertram, 'Freeman'". > No date on it, it is a story of getting sober in AA. > > Information? > > Jean Cottel > jcottel@earthlink.net > (jcottel at earthlink.net) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3325. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Use of Dash in First Step From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 11:05:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII To again cite the famous and eloquent John Wayne: "Hold on there pilgrims!" If we are going to delve into the mystical and esoteric connotations of punctuation marks then let's get those gol-darn punctuation marks straight by golly. [Citation from a web article by Peter K Sheerin] "When you need a dash, for whatever reason, you need a dash--not a hyphen. There are two kinds of dashes: the n-dash and the m-dash. The n-dash is called that because it is the same width as the letter "n". The m-dash is longer--the width of the letter "m". We use the n-dash for numerical ranges, as in "6-10 years." When we need a dash as a form of parenthetical punctuation in a sentence--as I have been using it rather freely already in this article--we use the m-dash. An "em" is a unit of measurement defined as the point size of the
font -- 12 point type uses a 12 point "em." An "en" is one-half of an "em."
of the information below, after factoring in such powerful hearsay sources as "my sponsor said" there is only one solid conclusion:
sour stomach). Does anyone truly believe that the selection of a single punctuation was all that significant or profound?
punctuation mark and conjure up (oh so seriously and profoundly) all kinds of conclusions that rest far more on imagination than information. But what a dull society we would have if folks didn't do it (rule #62 and grin, grin, wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Cheers Arthur
night school law degree.
in the 1st paragraph? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3326. . . . . . . . . . . . Emmet Fox From: Matthugh Bennett . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 1:55:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I was wondering if there was any documentation as to the early members being readers or listeners of Emmet Fox. I have been reading his writings for about a year and find the spirit of the message strong there.
where there was no Emmet and then "revised history" with Emmet. I'm more curious from a historical standpoint. Wether they read it or not has not kept it from helping me grow spiritually! ________________________________ From the moderator, Glenn C. -- Yes, Emmet Fox's book was widely read and greatly admired in early A.A., see for example:
Books for A.A. Beginners (http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html) A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous (THE AKRON MANUAL), published by the Akron group in late 1939 or early 1940, with Dr. Bob's approval we must assume, and handed out to alcoholics when they were admitted to the hospital for detoxing, gives a list at the end of ten recommended readings for newcomers to A.A., so that they might better understand the spiritual aspects of the program. "The following literature," the pamphlet says, "has helped many members of Alcoholics Anonymous": (1) Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book). (2) The Holy Bible (especially the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, the letter of James, 1 Corinthians 13, and Psalms 23 and 91).
Co., Milwaukee). (5) As a Man Thinketh, James Allen. (6) The Sermon on the Mount, Emmet Fox (Harper Bros.). (7) The Self You Have to Live With, Winfred Rhoades. (8) Psychology of Christian Personality, Ernest M. Ligon (Macmillan Co.). (9) Abundant Living, E. Stanley Jones. (10) The Man Nobody Knows, Bruce Barton. ________________________________ As you can see, Emmet Fox's book was number six on the early Akron AA recommended reading list. It is easy to obtain copies of this book.
books which Mel B. published in 2004 (see http://hindsfoot.org/kML3rc1.html).
themes which appear in Emmet Fox. This early twentieth century approach to spirituality was called New Thought. Many early AA members were strongly influenced by New Thought in their interpretation of the AA program. The Unity Church of Peace is one group which still teaches a New Thought approach to spirituality. (This is NOT the same as "New Age," which means magic crystals and channeling and all that sort of thiing.)
Table Leader's Guide, a widely used set of early A.A. beginners lessons) had a long passage from Emmet Fox at the end, called "Staying on the Beam." *** ________________________________ Can any members of the group give us other references to Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount in early AA literature?
Bend, Indiana, where I live, which read Emmet Fox's book during their meetings, and insisted that everybody in the AA group be thoroughly familiar with that book. ________________________________ *** STAYING ON THE BEAM, by Emmet Fox (http://hindsfoot.org/Detr4.html) Today most commercial flying is done on a radio beam. A directional beam is produced to guide the pilot to his destination, and as long as he keeps on this beam he knows that he is safe, even if he cannot see around him for fog, or get his bearings in any other way. As soon as he gets off the beam in any direction he is in danger, and he immediately tries to get back on to the beam once more. Those who believe in the All-ness of God, have a spiritual beam upon which to navigate on the voyage of life. As long as you have peace of mind and some sense of the Presence of God you are on the beam, and you are safe, even if outer things seem to be confused or even very dark; but as soon as you get off
the beam you are in danger. You are off the beam the moment you are angry or resentful or jealous or frightened or depressed; and when such a condition arises you should immediately get back on the beam by turning quietly to God in thought, claiming His Presence, claiming that His Love and Intelligence are with you, and that the promises in the Bible are true today. If you do this you are back on the beam, even if outer conditions and your own feelings do not change immediately. You are back on the beam and you will
reach port in safety. Keep on the beam and nothing shall by any means hurt you. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3327. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob''s Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952 From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 3:15:00 PM
Bob in private and pleasant exchange of emails. I'd like to also submit it [slightly edited] for consideration.
never really [give AA an opportunity] to begin with. That's why [over time] citations of the %50 + 25% = 75% rate by Bill W and others was qualified to only include "of those who really tried."... What is often missing from discussions of successes or failures is that thousands of prospects may show up at AA meetings but only a fraction will go on to decide to give AA's recovery program a try. [It is also reasonable to presume that if zero efforts are put in to AA then zero results will come out of it].
factored into the success rate calculations without grotesquely distorting it. It would be analogous to trying to measure the effectiveness of a medical procedure by including people who suffer from the medical problem but decide not to seek help from a doctor or a hospital. They at least have to try the medical procedure to asses its effectiveness and so too with AA's recovery program. Bill W frequently attempted to emphasize this consideration but it seems to get obscured.
talking about a small fraction of those who showed up at meetings or those who were approached in a 12th Step call. It's likely even more severe today given the number of people who are involuntarily sent to AA by courts and others.
Psychiatry, Bill W wrote "Of alcoholics who stay with us and really try, 50% get sober at once and stay that way, 25% do so after some time and the remainder usually show improvement. But many problem drinkers do quit AA after a brief contact, maybe three or four out of five. Some are too psychopathic or damaged. But the majority have powerful rationalizations yet to be broken down. Exactly this does happen provided they get what AA calls "good exposure" on first contact. Alcohol then builds such a hot fire
that they are finally driven back to us, often years later." Note the qualification [in 1949] by Bill W, that the 50-75% "success rate" applies to a subset of about 1-2 prospects out of 5. The remainder of the prospects (3 or 4 out of 5) "quit AA after a brief contact." [from another private email to Billy Bob and others] The topic of "AA success rates" has been of interest to me for quite
some time. I believe it suffers from a great deal of anecdotal misinformation, misinterpretation and editorializing and seems to divide itself into two categories:
rate (with about 25% of the "slippers" returning to successfully recover). This has been the prevailing "best guess" of AA's recovery outcomes going back to the late 1930s. From research I've done so far, I believe this is probably a reasonable "best estimate" of AA's success (both early and current AA). The only qualification being that it applies to those who attempt to give AA a try (i.e. you get out of AA what you put into it). 2. Scrutinizing a newer (and quite erroneous) assertion that AA is achieving a 5% or less success rate. This is based on a misinterpretation of a 1989 GSO report examining prior AA membership surveys (see Tom E's AAHistoryLovers posting #2379). The 5% notion is bogus but there is a segment of AA members that not only readily believes it but also attempts to exploit it to support personal agendas. To me, this is one of the biggest disservices AA members are doing to AA today (all of course claiming to rescue AA from itself and its presumed decline). The most historically revisionist, in this 5% [assertion is] the Back to Basics crowd. It is the principle [and very dubious] premise of their existence.
very limited period of time [and limited scope] in early AA, there is no consistent statistical record keeping backing up an assertion of recovery successes one way or another. Because of AA's autonomous structure, it's a major effort to just get a reasonable estimate of the number of groups much less an estimate of member recovery outcomes.
our forum is that members of AAHistoryLovers retain the opportunity to express their viewpoints and findings irrespective of whether it is popular or unpopular. This way whatever is presented is subjected to both defense and refutation of its validity. As a result, sooner or later the facts will emerge and prevail. This is the same methodology used in the academic arena and it works (warts and all).
figurative statements being interpreted literally. For example, Bill W is often cited as having said this or that as if Bill was in possession of hard statistical data when in fact he was simply offering a personal estimate of what he sincerely believed. The same is true for statements in AA literature. In those cases where there is a local study of success and failure, the question arises whether the study can serve to rise to the level of statistical confidence to describe the Fellowship as a whole at the time - or does it simply describe the local area. As a human being, Bill W made errors in his recording of AA history. It was not done to be deceptive or misleading but was only the product of human error. The difficulty is that many in AA take a stand that if something is in the Big Book then it is accorded the same standing as scripture and if something is said by Bill W it is irrefutable. This is when it gets awkward (and sometimes heated). Likewise, the authors of AA literature (Bill W included) are also human and can make human errors in research and reporting. The other difficulty is how to frame fragments of information into proper context. For example, [Billy Bob's citation of Francis Hartigan has a basis of truth but is being taken out of context].
(Hartigan's) interpretation of the "success rate" that Bill and Bob achieved while
Bill was staying with Bob in Akron from May to August 1935. What's missing from the description of this period of time is that Bill and Dr Bob (who also suffered a relapse during the period) had 2 failures and 2 successes. The failures were a Dr McK (mentioned in Bill's autobiography "Bill W My First 40 Years") and Edgar "Eddie" R mentioned in "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers." The successes were Bill D (AA #3) and Ernie G (albeit a temporary success that would later go the way of Ebby T). However, the main omission, in terms of context, was that the target population of prospects were alcoholics of the type that were written off as hopeless and beyond any help (so that a single success would be remarkable in terms of the typical fatal outcome for these prospects).
Bob's memorial (and Hartigan's citation as well). [In the talk] Bill qualified that he was referring to the "flying blind" period of AA (so was Hartigan). It would hardly qualify as an appropriate point of reference to characterize AA success or failure.
Charlie) can vest members with an aura of historical validity when, in fact, they are simply relaying what they believe is true but is lacking in factual demonstration. Clancy I of LA also likes to mention in his talks that most of the members who had their stories printed in the 1st edition Big Book went back to drinking. That too is myth and is completely refuted by Bill W in his introduction to the new stories in the 2nd edition Big Book. But I guess sticking to the facts doesn't always make for an entertaining talk to the circuit speaker folks.
in June 1935 and today has well over 2 million members. That is not a measurement of failure by anybody's benchmark. In between 1935 and today there were tens of millions of alcoholics who recovered and survived thanks to AA and this too is not factored into the assessments of success and failure outcomes. Cheers Arthur
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of backtobasicsbillybob Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:18 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Exact Quote From Dr. Bob's Memorial Service, Nov. 15th, 1952
sober and some very tough ones at that." Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob's Memorial Speech, Nov. 1952, At The 24th Street Club in New York City, New York. To Thine Own Self Be True, Billy-Bob Yahoo! Groups Links IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3328. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill W.''s talk at Rockland State Hospital
From: bludahlia2003 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 4:56:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Anyone know where I might find information about the presentation that Bill W gave to the Board Meeting at Rockland State Hospital (now known as Rockland Psychiatric Center) in 1939? IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3329. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Freeman Carpenter From: jlobdell54 . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 8:36:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII "Freeman Carpenter" (Clyde B., who is alive, sober -- I believe -- since 1946, and should therefore be anonymous) has his own website, FreemanCarpenter@aol.com, lives in Eastern PA, and has been invited to the History and Archives Gathering in Lebanon PA June 24 2006 -- I don't know if he'll be able to be there, as he is 86 years old and lives 90 or so miles away. -- Jared Lobdell IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3330. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: Bill W.''s last trip to Towns Hospital
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 4/13/2006 9:49:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi John Bill had 4 admissions to Towns Hospital. Source References (with page numbers) AACOA - AA Comes of Age BW-40 - Bill W My First 40 Years BW-FH - Bill W by Francis Hartigan BW-RT - Bill W by Robert Thomsen GB - Getting Better LOH - Language of the Heart LR - Lois Remembers NG - Not God Yüklə 13,83 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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