Changes In academia: students who get the degree in physics after the 3+2 system was settled, are less educated The new curriculum is meant to train physicist to work outside academia, not only to be researchers; this way the number of students who enrol at physics can increase.
Changes in the university ICEBERG 15: (..) some people are now complaining that the preparation is poorer, ok, fine, but it’s not like you can only prepare people who are destined to be University lecturers and so the major part of the criticism towards this kind of preparation has been: -We should train people who are capable of doing rather various jobs, and so many people don’t need this level of preparation, so we need to get renormalized in terms of real needs, which is true, but at the same time, it’s becoming very flat, and so, but I wouldn’t know what the solution to this problem should be,
(...) then there’s another aspect and it’s the fact that Universities need a certain number of people in order to be financed, I mean the existence of Universities is justified by the number of students attending them and by the number of students that manage to get a diploma, those who manage to obtain it, and so it means that you should let many people in to be considered a good-. (...) then there’s another aspect and it’s the fact that Universities need a certain number of people in order to be financed, I mean the existence of Universities is justified by the number of students attending them and by the number of students that manage to get a diploma, those who manage to obtain it, and so it means that you should let many people in to be considered a good-.PG: University.ICEBERG 15: which is like a dog chasing its tail.P 118 CC: 226, P33 NR
Reasons for leaving All-absorbing job (no other priorities) Stressful and competitive job No fundings and no posts- Lack of guarantees
- Low salaries
Personal reasons for leaving physics (female) ICEBERG 8: …in this aspect really scared me, so I left research- I escaped, I mean, seeing so many people around who would get completely absorbed by their work even without wanting to, because if not, you won’t- be able to keep up the pace, I don’t know, I did not really like this aspect of it, I mean, when I was at the RBM and I had to stay till 7 o’clock in the evening, because otherwise I would not have entered [smiles] into this world, would I? So if you don’t do this, people might think you don’t care at all [smiles] - hum, as if you did not care at all, so in the end, you’d do it somehow or-.GC: you’d be an outsider.ICEBERG8: an outsider and it wasn’t for me, I just could not make it (..) especially in Italy, where the positions are so few.GC: and little money .
ICEBERG8: no money at all practically [smiles] and as a researcher you must know, well, of course you do, so there are moments when you think that you either dedicate yourself completely to it, your body and your soul _ but then you really find yourself having to dedicate- to dedicate your body and your soul to it anyway . ICEBERG8: no money at all practically [smiles] and as a researcher you must know, well, of course you do, so there are moments when you think that you either dedicate yourself completely to it, your body and your soul _ but then you really find yourself having to dedicate- to dedicate your body and your soul to it anyway .GC: giving up may be, on other things -.ICEBERG8: giving up on many other things anyway, as to me, anyway, I wanted to have a child [smiles] actually I wanted to have more than one, and I have 2 [smiles] I wanted to have 2 kids, (..) GC: (..) so if you had to tell me what were the reasons you decided to have a teaching career-. ICEBERG8: (….) I liked research as an intellectual challenge somehow, and on the other hand it was hard for me to _ have to constantly prove something to someone, to have to-.
Once again we find the importance for the physicist to know and to show his/her knowledge Once again we find the importance for the physicist to know and to show his/her knowledge and the importance of staying at the lab to show that your job is your only priority. The next informant (male) stressed more the fact of being in a hurry, otherwise someone else ‘would make the discovery before you’.
Personal reasons for leaving physics (male) ICEBERG5: (…) honestly, I miss sometimes the formulas, but now I’m leading a more peaceful and relaxed life, also because when you do research, you have always to pay attention to what is happening around you, since you may be working on a project and you need to hurry up, because there is someone else who is going to make the discovery before you. Therefore, you always need to be very careful-.GC: so there is much competition!
ICEBERG5: a lot! There is much competition, but it is never positive…. I don’t know if you have ever taken part in a conference-. ICEBERG5: a lot! There is much competition, but it is never positive…. I don’t know if you have ever taken part in a conference-.GC: no, not yet.ICEBERG5: ok, so be ready! … This happened to me at a conference in Lozano [unclear]. There was someone who came from Princeton, but he was from Sardinia. He was somebody very [unclear]. He is a person who has done much and is still young: he must be in his forties
…. Anyway, on that occasion he asked me a first question, a very specific question. It was evident that I was a PhD student who had not achieved any important result yet. Therefore, I didn’t represent a danger to him and his reputation. Moreover, he posed the question with a marked American accent [unclear]. I asked him to repeat his question and he repeated it with a more marked American accent. These are things which are-. …. Anyway, on that occasion he asked me a first question, a very specific question. It was evident that I was a PhD student who had not achieved any important result yet. Therefore, I didn’t represent a danger to him and his reputation. Moreover, he posed the question with a marked American accent [unclear]. I asked him to repeat his question and he repeated it with a more marked American accent. These are things which are-.GC: they are very common.ICEBERG5: they are the order of the dayGC: do you think that this competition might have influenced [unclear]?ICEBERG5: well, I have [unclear] to lead a peaceful life if I can. I do not want to be stressed, because - and I assure that it is stressful...
Reasons for leaving: opinion Italian Stayer CB: do you know anyone who quit physics?BIG LAKE 6: many many many, eh one of them was really good truly very skilled, one of the most brilliant ones I’ve ever had .CB: and the reason why he quit in your opinion?BIG LAKE 6: he had had a baby and he had to choose between continuing with temporary employment or taking up a fixed post as high school teacher-.CB: so he opted for a guarantee .BIG LAKE 6: a post in high school, yes basically a guarantee; those I saw quitting, quit for lack of guarantees, one could also stand for a difference in salary.CB: mh mh.
BIG LAKE 6: which does exist anyway for our work and the industry, but the lack of guarantees no. BIG LAKE 6: which does exist anyway for our work and the industry, but the lack of guarantees no.CB: and so you think these reasons are typical?BIG LAKE 6: yes CB: of quitting-.BIG LAKE 6: in my experience yes lots of them, yes lots of them-. P 100 CC: 816, P29 NR
Reasons for leaving: opinion, Italian Leaver who does research in France ICEBERG 14: ... in Italy the situation is desperate.PG: and what is the reason? I mean..-. ICEBERG 14: there are no jobs available in research ! PG: Ah!ICEBERG 14: there is no funding, there is no recruitment in the field, I mean if we only take into consideration Paris VI University, we have more jobs available than they have in the whole of Italy, I am talking about recruitment in physics, in my discipline, in Paris VI, one single university; I know it is the biggest in France but the number of new staff is higher than the number of new staff of all Italian Universities put together in the same year, so that makes it obvious PG: of course!
ICEBERG 14: 30% of the new staff here is Italian . ICEBERG 14: 30% of the new staff here is Italian .PG: I see !ICEBERG 14: In Paris VI-.PG: mh mh-.ICEBERG 14: in all disciplines, chemistry, mathematics, above all chemistry and physics.PG: understood!ICEBERG 14: so, physically speaking, there are no places available in Italy. P 117 CC: 144, P38 NR: 144
Reasons for leaving: opinion Italian Leaver who does research in France ICEBERG 15: I think for many of them it was because of the temporary contracts (..) there are people who did their PhD, then their post doc, who kept their post doc positions for various years, … there are people who last long, there are many colleagues who are over forty… who live with temporary contracts and at this point it’s really a matter of faith [laughs].PG : all right, may be they are doing it because it’s really something they like.ICEBERG 15: because, because they feel passionate about it beyond measure, as they say, well, that’s not actually true, probably they are people who not just feel passionate about it but who also sacrifice a lot for it.P118 CC: 246, P33 NR: 244
Personal reasons for leaving Italian academia ICEBERG 15: in terms of work, well, the fact that I found myself in France is a complete coincidence, I mean, in terms of, as soon as I finished, right after I got graduated I knew I wanted to try abroad.CB: of course!ICEBERG 15: so I left for a PhD and I got a chance to do it here, in Paris, in France, then, once I finished my PhD, I tried to look for opportunities in Italy and the offers I got from Italy, I had an offer from Italy, to work in Florence, and another offer to work in Grenoble, in France, and there was absolutely no comparison from the economic point of view, so I stayed in France.CB: of course.ICEBERG 15: as it was definitely on much more favourable terms (...)
in the end of my 3 years of the post doc I started taking public examinations to obtain a permanent position and at the same time I was hoping to return to Italy, but I was looking everywhere, … contemporarily considering to return to Italy and the maitre de conf position here in Paris, I had both and I chose the maitre de conf position as returning to Italy again was poorly-. in the end of my 3 years of the post doc I started taking public examinations to obtain a permanent position and at the same time I was hoping to return to Italy, but I was looking everywhere, … contemporarily considering to return to Italy and the maitre de conf position here in Paris, I had both and I chose the maitre de conf position as returning to Italy again was poorly-.CB: paid-.ICEBERG 15: and it was a fixed-term contract, while this is a permanent position and so that’s it.P 118 CC: 50, P33 NR: 49
In the last two quotations our informants make another comparison between the Italian and the French systems, helping us in making a clear picture of the faults of the Italian research enviroment. In the last two quotations our informants make another comparison between the Italian and the French systems, helping us in making a clear picture of the faults of the Italian research enviroment.
Reasons for leaving: opinion + personal reasons, Italian Leaver who does research in France PG: Do you have any idea about the reason why they quit?ICEBERG 17: Yes, they mainly quit because of the precariousness; there are no guarantees. I thought about quitting too, because the Italian system does not give you any hope.PG : And if you had to compare what France is offering to you, what would you tell me about it?ICEBERG 17: The French system is a more merit system compared to the Italian one, this is the main difference; sometimes I regret not to have attended the PhD here in France (..) Everything is harder in Italy, over here you are in a stable laboratory, ten hours per day and you have more time to dedicate to your jobP119 CC: 120, P 36 NR: 122
Hierarchy and competition PG: how would you describe hierarchy and leadership in your workplace here (in France) ?ICEBERG 17: Mh, I found a difference between France and Italy, in the sense that in Italy the system is still much more “baronial”. But the most important difference is that in Italy it is as if you took a ticket with a number at a grocery store and then patiently waited for your turn. So it doesn’t matter how well you work, you just have to wait and perhaps you'll pass the next competitive examination for a job as a researcher. On the contrary, here it is different because, in my opinion, there’s a lot more attention to meritocracy and hierarchy is less pyramidal.PG: Yes, indeed I liked what a guy said, that here there's a sort of horizontal hierarchy!ICEBERG 17: Exactly!PG: That means that hierarchy actually exists, but they don't make you sense the difference between_ICEBERG 17: Yes, yes, it is not pyramidal!
Heavy workload / endogamic couples Partner’s support and respect for work commitments positively affected women’s career paths and marriages: it might explain endogamic couples - I remember being frustrated when I could not attend meetings or do something because my baby-sitter could not come, and it was very helpful having a husband who is doing the same thing and is therefore very comprehensive about the way this job goes, its pace, its necessities, so we helped each other, tried to make everything possible one for another to be able to attend an important meeting or trip, as when you do the same thing you know the importance of particular events without needing to explain it.
Mobility: difficult choices I came to X with a scholarship, to work with Touschek (...) Then I met my husband (...) we decided to get married, he had a position in the States though, so I left the scholarship I had in X, it was the 2nd year of its renewal, and I went to the States, to Y, where we lived for 14 years (..) I had a part-time teaching job at the University where my husband was a lecturer, my research was not financed because I did not have a researcher position (...) my husband went to Italy for a year, for his sabbatical, with our son, and I stayed in Y. with our daughter (...) the family separation was necessary, because I kept thinking about Italy, I wanted to have a possibility to go back to Italy, (..) He was 9 months old and I was in Y with our daughter, a year later they came back and we got back to our normal life, but it obviously had it’s impact on us (...) it was blood and tears, no doubt, when I look back it is extremely difficult to realize yourself professionally without sacrificing your family, when I see my friends, my female colleagues, in Europe, it is extremely hard
Parents and relatives influence children in choosing physics as a career, or at least as a faculty to be attended: they provide them with hands-on scientific experiences, expose them to exciting scientific events, or buying the ‘right’ books and magazines (Women Physicists Speak Again, 2006: 4) Some interviewed females said that their parents did not encourage them in pursuing science but rather hindered them
Woman research manager: Woman research manager: I enrolled in the faculty of philosophy because I had to enrol somewhere, my father wanted me to go to University, just not physics, so we agreed that I’d see if I was interested in literature and philosophy, as these were subjects I did well at school anyway, but then after a while I was so fed up with literature and philosophy that my father had to give in (...)
THANK YOU FOR YOUR THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION !!!Cristina & Giulia
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