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San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948 article
also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its beginning. Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote: > The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946 by > Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age they > thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger alcoholic. They > started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of age. The > group had several female members. They felt they could deal with members who > were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They had > parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings. > Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group members,
> I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group > got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples convention.Most > of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each other and > were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety. > The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M. at > 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania. > Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think > there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area. > Yours in Service, > Shakey Mike G. >
(c) Grapevine, November 1946 What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia? From Philadelphia A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years of age and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members, only
three of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This membership has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry over four
months. We were under the impression when we began this group that we were trailblazers in the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that it has
been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking pioneer
credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope to hear from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your experience with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been attempted. We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding with
caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of prevention than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often enough,
so they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to offer. It is
feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of relapses, and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later members
have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have stuck to
AA. So, we are doing some good. Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice, criticism and
opinions on what we are trying to do. -- B.D.Mc. -------------------------------- (c) Grapevine, May 1948 Young Men Solve Meeting Problems from San Diego, Calif. In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence S. of Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need A.A.
In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young Women's
Group (under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been very successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s. The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John Doe, I'd
quit drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell of 20 years of
hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we could
even approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the idea we had to hit
several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least two or more trips to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling we couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough. The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its strongest selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's turning
point. The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no education on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down until their
hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in almost
each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually better
established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for a much longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and it is
often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young wife
is more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings. The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible memories in their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot to erase the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days, but
a lot of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that was what
we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other drinks
that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands. The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble once in a
while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today; problems
that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These problems and many others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group. The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with six
young men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young fellows and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed with us for three months, by which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new meeting. Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any applause for the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it was no
men found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address the chair.
Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better understanding and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger fellows
strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help the
person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion and
possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds barred.
There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because of their greater experience in handling some particular problem. On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have naturally dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are now doing
a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer their
homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has played a
huge part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose columns of
section. For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and the average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not affected our attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their meeting will
be held on the eve of a big holiday. The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and they are
very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word they
may have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the group. All business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be left until
the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is never
excepted: NO WOMEN. We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and certainly hope it
will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of "old
goats." -- W.B.A.
(c) Grapevine, July 1950 Bridging the Age Gap TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern with the
seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth largest
Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public mind.
Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually being
supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention and
the arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages. One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young people,
who are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this disease. The
stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has proven
that in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in the period
of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a drink," "Becoming anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly entrenched while the alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however, started to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and "Benders" quite early in their
business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and other
assets. Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism in relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose specific aim
is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In New
York City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five and Under Group"
has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75 to 100 alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments the
older and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the meetings of older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of thinking about alcoholism and the therapy of AA. Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first few
group meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the prolonging of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early twenties or thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20 or 30 years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person. How much
more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in 'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age group are facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it is encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar difficulties with
success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able to discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent tendencies of alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other factors which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the feeling of mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching," "Parental- Counseling," or "Scholastic Pedanticism." -- J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y.
YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has decided
to disband. Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a Young People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We feel that
there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that most
of its original members are active in other groups. It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive sobriety
such as these original members are experiencing. Roy L., Winthrop, Mass.
A Report on YOUTH GROUPS I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in Milwaukee this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250 AAs,
Al-Anon members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee. AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the meetings
with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San Francisco, California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape. How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as speakers
or on the host planning committee the average age is thirty four -- ranging from twenty-two to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and nine
months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their teens;
twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties. Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One girl had an
eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago, aged
thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the platform, "I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no one in the audience seemed particularly impressed. Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said, "I was an alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared, "I know I was an alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at seventeen, and knew then I
was an alcoholic." Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace among these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own. Another could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John C. Burke
of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at the
conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who introduced the Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison official told one of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his institution have a drinking problem. Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services: "because in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent stories of
So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say -- in private conversations -- they
felt puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too young to be an
alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some more drinking. You're not old enough for AA." As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I overheard an older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young punk has
drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old good-humoredly, "but it was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my life unmanageable." A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness of his alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often that my
first wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it, because my booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more." He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave him his first year. He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go drink another
ten years. You're no alky." The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing when I told
them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be an alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a psychiatrist, and
drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have drunk, or how much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for AA." Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older members, but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow in his early thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse and a Twelfth
Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it." This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's group was
formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to let
the young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder" reported. "But then," added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed money badly, so they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings now." In
fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to this
"infant" group. Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the platform. And
only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger about
such treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs this young
fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys. These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA members in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I talked to in Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In some places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and flood-tide energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social clubs, or
healthy young
people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young alcoholics," as one man put it. "We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been sober : nine years.
"We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step lots of
other younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or eight carloads of us go along." "Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I guess we just rebel more at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no temptation to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub gin or
Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current problems," one fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and other personal
problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family, are
not problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them together and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober, which must
come first always, of course." (In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than other regional AA conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active in local
family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as hostesses and guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had four
Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous, handsome
blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in AA" banner which decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.) If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of AA at the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest self-criticism, frank and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident constantly. A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young people's groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not different just because
they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet still
be sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does age." The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have carried the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of Milwaukee's big daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA." Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA members
of the Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the secretary of the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh General Service
Conference supported the youth conference with their presence. Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked specifically about
young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told their
own stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme words of
But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people in AA really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young people?
As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and each
seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience. A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts, Aims, Purposes
of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It declares: "...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in every city so the young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems with other young people of their own age." Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible for
them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other groups.
Most of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend other meetings in addition to those for young people. Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation of special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young people in any AA groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else. We do not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to add an extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA." Three young members in a New England state -- who were not at the Milwaukee Convention -- say they have found no need for special young people's groups.
One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen. "I used to window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk, dressed
in sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so people would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature and I didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really got sober.
It happened in a regular group." Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at eighteen because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he says, "I thought I was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of older
members. His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed for the jug
before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen years old." Ten years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see any room in this outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' -- that is, get to be group secretary!" He laughs
at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat method
prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two delegates to the Eleventh General Service Conference in New York. Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better utilized in contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so. None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA as General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference Delegates. (However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are avid GSO
supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among them.
Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with loners;
lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par with
what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to those
larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service. There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness of AA
Newspaper reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the executive director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a high school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department was also
present by invitation. On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central office secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the lifesavers of AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the service jobs in
them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that we get most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're the
ones we can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and public information tasks." One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said: "We noticed in my regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting to discuss it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we helped
establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these conferences. You see, it's great for us!" The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when spoken to,"
grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference, in Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found themselves with
some pretty tough problems to lick. Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a permanent "Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth conference idea and
accumulate a body of guiding experience. Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory Council. They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of future conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers, paid their
own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and set
up a permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA. "We're not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept insisting. "Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger people." Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service arm, in
committees directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not. The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such new
developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget, we have
a self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the framework of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as we put
ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to encourage them, to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They don't need
our censure. We owe them our love." I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the quality of their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their determination generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught me a lot,
and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time. One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in increasing numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and the older
members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential. B.L., New York City IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3164. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia - Longbeach Convention? From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM
Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that convention?
Steven
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3165. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill D. From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Mel and interested others, Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the first edition because he wanted to be paid for it.
From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand Him" is a paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or Jimmy B. or whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase "God
as we understand Him". Archie B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Archie Bunkers" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him
> > "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that > we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." > > Is William James the source of the Big Book > phrase "God as we understand him"?? > > Archie B. > > ________________________________ > > From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) > > The passage which Archie quotes is from one > of the four pamphlets we possess which > were written by the early AA people in Akron. > They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," > "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics > Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. > > In the passage in question, which says "William > James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should > believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," > it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron > believed, not that William James wrote that line, > but instead were agreeing that adding "as we > understand Him" to the references to God in the > twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief > that people of different personality types needed > different types of spirituality and different kinds > of conceptions of God. > > "God as we understand Him" was not a quote > from James however, as they give it in this > pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we > understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what > James was saying in the long quotation which they > give from him, where James says "Religion shall > mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of > individual men in their solitude, so far as they > apprehend themselves to stand in relation to > whatever they may consider the divine." > > The early Akron AA people were clearly saying > in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the > teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and > freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who > followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great > Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and > Buddhists, could all join together in following the > twelve steps and could understand why following > these spiritual guides to action could lead us to > the higher spiritual life. > > Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, > which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that > section, so the group can read in context what > the early Akron AA people believed: > _____________________________________ > > "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous" > > Part IV > > BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the > nebulous side, we are offered more concrete > guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality. > It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even > though it seems so at first. > > Let's examine what some of the fine minds of > history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators -- > have to say about religion. Note that none of them, > with the exception of St. James, is a professional > religionist. > > "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a > sense of need." --Allan Menzies. > > "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and > experiences of individual men in their solitude, so > far as they apprehend themselves to stand in > relation to whatever they may consider the divine." > -- William James. > > "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as > divine commands."--Immanual Kant. > > "Religion is that part of human experience in > which man feels himself in relation with powers > of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and > makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba. > > "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and > Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows > in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted > from the world."--The General Epistle of James, > 1:27.
> > One cannot but be impressed with the similarity > of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps. > > The Menzies definition is nothing more than a > condensed version of the first three steps wherein > we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power > greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our > wills and lives over to that Power. > > William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we > should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM. > > Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives > over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven, > wherein we are admonished to give our lives a > thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and > restitutions are without question divine commands. > > James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step, > where we make use of our newly found powers. > > And all we need to do in the St. James passage is > to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less > and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a > matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we > were very definitely fatherless and widows. > > The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly. > There is not an ethical religion in the world today > that does not teach to a great extent the principles > of Love, Charity and Good Will. > > The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who > will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the > great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social > justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one > of our finest examples of helping one another. When > a member of the family gets into trouble of any > kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally > around with advice, admonition, and even financial > assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason > there are not more Jewish members of AA. The > family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic > problem. > > Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the > poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler, > and conduct themselves with personal dignity. > > Consider the eight-part program laid down in > Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right > action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness > and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy, > as exemplified by these eight points, could be > literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or > addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal > love and welfare of others rather than > considerations of self are basic to Buddhism. > > The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit. > Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility > and serenity. > > St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order." > We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ++++Message 3167. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: God as we understand Him From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Hi Archie On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is factually enlightening. Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies, William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in other
literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states: "Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers, psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist."
the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17). I had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist." But this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no more than the substance of opinion. The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience:" "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."
state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually complete citation would read:
mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider theology or ecclesiasticism at all." As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated. It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of James' magnificent book.
about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the primary source of the notion. In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last stay
at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H. Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with the Oxford Group:
vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with scores of men who felt the same way. My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?" That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last.
than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would!
Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view."
chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad. As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps (along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P are credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs 166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time. Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much influence - probably more than William James even though he is mentioned twice in the Big Book. Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other authors and books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings - among them:
in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41). "When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete" (Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55). "Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second Birth, p. 47).
understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption.
level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62). Cheers Arthur
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him
we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM." Is William James the source of the Big Book phrase "God as we understand him"?? Archie B. ________________________________ From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana) The passage which Archie quotes is from one of the four pamphlets we possess which were written by the early AA people in Akron. They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous," "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous," "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous. In the passage in question, which says "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM," it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron believed, not that William James wrote that line, but instead were agreeing that adding "as we understand Him" to the references to God in the twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief that people of different personality types needed different types of spirituality and different kinds of conceptions of God.
from James however, as they give it in this pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what James was saying in the long quotation which they give from him, where James says "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine." The early Akron AA people were clearly saying in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, could all join together in following the twelve steps and could understand why following these spiritual guides to action could lead us to the higher spiritual life. Here is that particular section of the pamphlet, which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that section, so the group can read in context what the early Akron AA people believed: _____________________________________
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