San Diego Young Men's group is reported to have begun in Oct 46 -that 1948
article
also mentions a Young Women's group also there, but does not date its
beginning.
Shakey1aa@aol.com wrote:
> The 35 and Younger Group(Young Peoples Group) was started February 1946
by
> Art L, and Bates Mc L. in Philadelphia, Pa. Being under 30 years of age
they
> thought that AA wasn't doing such a good job with the younger
alcoholic. They
> started a weekly monday meeting for members of AA under 35 years of
age. The
> group had several female members. They felt they could deal with
members who
> were younger and had not yet hit as low a bottom as older members. They
had
> parties, picnic's and other social events as well as the AA meetings.
> Several years ago,at a workshop that had several original group
members,
> I remember Pat C saying that she and several other members of the group
> got in a car and went to Niagra Falls for the 1st Young Peoples
convention.Most
> of those that attended the workshop had a love of life and of each
other and
> were all over 50 years of continuous sobriety.
> The group will celebrate 60 years on Tuesday, February 14th at 7 P.M.
at
> 4021 Walnut St. Philadelphia,Pennsylvania.
> Does anyone know of any Young People's Groups before that date. I think
> there may have been another group in the Los Angeles area.
> Yours in Service,
> Shakey Mike G.
>
-----------------------------
(c) Grapevine, November 1946
What Do You Think About Youth Group In Philadelphia?
From Philadelphia
A group of A.A.s has been formed at Philadelphia for men and women, 35 years
of
age
and under. This group was formed in January, 1946, with just six members,
only
three
of whom had been dry the four months required for voting membership. This
membership
has since been expanded to about thirty, nearly half of whom have been dry
over
four
months.
We were under the impression when we began this group that we were
trailblazers
in
the field, but reports from some of our visiting A.A.s have indicated that
it
has
been tried before, although with very little success. We are not seeking
pioneer
credit in writing this letter, but rather, constructive criticism. We hope
to
hear
from other groups throughout the country, giving us the benefit of your
experience
with young people and with such organizations as ours if they have been
attempted.
We were slow in getting started with our group and we are still proceeding
with
caution since it is apparent that our abilities lie more in the realm of
prevention
than in cure. Most young people have not been hurt badly enough or often
enough,
so
they think, to feel that they are in any need of what we in A.A. have to
offer.
It is
feared that for this reason we will experience more than a normal number of
relapses,
and that our progress will of necessity be slow. However, many of our later
members
have admitted that had it not been for this young group they would not have
stuck to
AA. So, we are doing some good.
Let's hear from other groups. We would like your suggestions, advice,
criticism
and
opinions on what we are trying to do. -- B.D.Mc.
--------------------------------
(c) Grapevine, May 1948
Young Men Solve Meeting Problems
from San Diego, Calif.
In the January issue of The A.A. Grapevine there is a letter from Florence
S.
of
Forest Hills, N.Y., asking for suggestions for the younger ages who need
A.A.
In San Diego, this problem has been met by the formation of the Young
Women's
Group
(under 35), and the Young Men's Group (under 40). These groups have been
very
successful and seem to have tapped an unending source of new A.A.s.
The young men seemed to have the idea, "Hell, if I was as old as John
Doe, I'd
quit
drinking, too." It was rather disheartening to listen to someone tell
of 20
years of
hard drinking, and realize that we had five or ten years to go before we
could
even
approximate the same low bottom. These "old goats" gave us the
idea we had to
hit
several cures, try a few types of "goof balls," and have at least
two or more
trips
to psychopathic wards, before we were ready for A.A. It gave us the feeling
we
couldn't make the Program because we hadn't been knocked around enough.
The first accomplishment noted by the Young Men's Group soon became its
strongest
selling point: It had automatically raised the level for the young man's
turning
point.
The older person's problems are greatly different from ours. There was no
education
on things alcoholic when they were our age, therefore they had to go down
until
their
hand was forced. We have been fortunate in having the subject discussed in
almost
each magazine we read these days. Their immediate families are usually
better
established so far as understanding goes, because they have been married for
a
much
longer period. The average young man is just beginning his family life and
it is
often harder to get his wife to go along in the new way of life. The young
wife
is
more apt to resent the husband's attendance at closed meetings.
The vast majority of our members are combat veterans with some horrible
memories in
their minds. The older members have the same memories but time does do a lot
to
erase
the strength of such thoughts. Only a few of us have seen prohibition days,
but
a lot
of us have put away a surprising amount of GI alcohol, de-icer fluid (that
was
what
we distilled in the Air Corps, and it wasn't too bad then), saki, and other
drinks
that are native to Hawaii, China, the Philippines and other Pacific Islands.
The younger man has an inherent cockiness that gives him a bit of trouble
once
in a
while. There are quite a few problems that confront the young man of today;
problems
that the "old goats" must have had but have now forgotten. These
problems and
many
others, we believe, can best be solved by a Young Men's Group.
The first meeting of the Young Men's Group was held October 31, 1946, with
six
young
men and 20 of the older men in attendance. The second meeting saw 15 young
fellows
and 23 "old goats" attending. The "old goats" stayed
with us for three months,
by
which time we had such a large attendance it was necessary to form a new
meeting.
Left on our own, we changed to roundtable type meetings and outlawed any
applause for
the speakers. The newer men soon found it was quite easy to speak since it
was
no
longer necessary to stand in front of an audience. Also, some of the quieter
men
found it easy to question the speaker since it wasn't necessary to address
the
chair.
Questioning and general discussions led to deeper explanations, better
understanding
and, generally speaking, better working of the A.A. Program. The younger
fellows
strike right at the heart of any problem placed before them, and Heaven help
the
person who isn't serious when he offers a problem or question for discussion
and
possible solution. We let our hair down in no uncertain manner with no holds
barred.
There are times when we have asked for help from the older members because
of
their
greater experience in handling some particular problem.
On the whole, our group has been a great success. Some of the boys have
naturally
dropped by the wayside, but most of these have re-enlisted in A.A. and are
now
doing
a splendid job. We have had quite a few drop out in favor of meetings nearer
their
homes, but this is a natural separation and we feel that our group has
played a
huge
part in selling them on this new way of life. The temporary win and lose
columns
of
A.A. will show our group with an exceptionally high percentage in the win
section.
For almost 17 months, our active member list has averaged about 50 men and
the
average meeting will find around 30 members attending. Holidays have not
affected our
attendance. Rather, it has been found that the men are glad that their
meeting
will
be held on the eve of a big holiday.
The third Thursday of each month we open our meeting to the oldtimers and
they
are
very welcome guests. They do not speak unless the leader asks for any word
they
may
have, or unless one feels he may have a message of special benefit for the
group. All
business discussion of any sort, clubs, parties or what have you, must be
left
until
the A.A. meeting has closed for the evening. The only ironclad rule that is
never
excepted: NO WOMEN.
We "charter members" are very proud of our group and its work, and
certainly
hope it
will continue to grow long after we have passed on into the category of
"old
goats." --
W.B.A.
--------------------------------
(c) Grapevine, July 1950
Bridging the Age Gap
TODAY, more than ever, people are becoming aware and taking greater concern
with the
seriousness of our major public health problems. Alcoholism, our fourth
largest
Public Health Problem, has more increasingly been brought before the public
mind.
Many of the taboos and myths formerly attached to alcoholism are gradually
being
supplanted with realistic thinking and serious attempts toward prevention
and
the
arresting of alcoholism in its earlier stages.
One of the most important myths that has been shattered is that young
people,
who
are still in their twenties and thirties cannot be suffering from this
disease.
The
stories of numerous alcoholics, now members of Alcoholics Anonymous, has
proven
that
in a large number of cases symptoms of this disease showed quite early in
the
period
of active drinking. The pattern of "Blackouts," "Excusing a
drink," "Becoming
anti-social" and having "Morning drinks" had become strongly
entrenched while
the
alcoholic was still a college student or in that age bracket. More, however,
started
to have difficulties such as "Solitary Drinking" and
"Benders" quite early in
their
business careers and resulted in the loss of jobs, family, finances and
other
assets.
Alcoholics Anonymous has taken a realistic look at the problem of alcoholism
in
relation to young people. In the last three or four years, groups whose
specific
aim
is to reach the younger alcoholic have mushroomed throughout the country. In
New
York
City alone, the Young Peoples Group better known as the "Thirty-Five
and Under
Group"
has grown from a mere handful in 1947 to its present membership of some 75
to
100
alcoholics ranging in age from the twenties through 35. This group augments
the
older
and more established groups and encourages its members to attend the
meetings of
older-age groups, so as to foster a more rounded and stabilized type of
thinking
about alcoholism and the therapy of AA.
Every member of Alcoholics Anonymous learns, after attendance of the first
few
group
meetings, that the Twelfth Suggested Step is a most important one in the
prolonging
of his or her sobriety. It is not easy for a young person in his early
twenties
or
thirties to be of assistance to the sick alcoholic who has been drinking 20
or
30
years and many times leads to dangerous comparisons by the younger person.
How
much
more useful this younger member can be when using his or her efforts in
'twelfth-stepping' a person of a comparative age level. Members of this age
group are
facing the many sided problems of living at relatively the same time and it
is
encouraging to know that other young people are hurdling similar
difficulties
with
success. Most important is the comfortable feeling which comes of being able
to
discuss problems such as Marriage, resumption of studies, the inherent
tendencies of
alcoholism, its prognosis in relation to certain family situations and other
factors
which might otherwise endanger sobriety. It is important because of the
feeling
of
mutuality and the lack of any taint of "Preaching,"
"Parental- Counseling," or
"Scholastic Pedanticism."
-- J.B., Brooklyn, N.Y.
--------------------------------
(c) Grapevine, June 1958
YOUTH GROUP DISBANDS
THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S GROUP of Boston, after a great deal of deliberation, has
decided
to disband.
Ten years ago when the group was formed, there was a definite need for a
Young
People's Group. Today, young people are well represented in most groups. We
feel
that
there is no need for a specialized group. The group is happy to report that
most
of
its original members are active in other groups.
It is encouraging to know that young people can enjoy happy productive
sobriety
such
as these original members are experiencing.
Roy L., Winthrop, Mass.
--------------------------------
(c) Grapevine, September 1961
A Report on YOUTH GROUPS
I ATTENDED the Fourth International Conference of Young People in AA in
Milwaukee
this year, and interviewed everybody present I could pin down. About 250
AAs,
Al-Anon
members and guests attended the three-day meeting in Milwaukee.
AAs and Al-Anons of all ages from the Milwaukee-Chicago area mingled at the
meetings
with young AAs from as far West as Vancouver, British Columbia, and San
Francisco,
California; from as far East as New York. Three Australian members, in their
thirties, sent their greetings and talks on tape.
How young are these AAs, really? Among forty AAs who participated as
speakers
or on
the host planning committee the average age is thirty four -- ranging
from
twenty-two
to fifty-two. The average length of continuous sobriety is four years and
nine
months. When they first came to AA, two of these forty AAs were in their
teens;
twenty-two were in their twenties and fourteen in their thirties.
Speaker after speaker told of dozens of arrests in their teen years. One
girl
had an
eight-year prison record behind her when she sobered up eight years ago,
aged
thirty-four. When one thirty-one-year-old, sober eight years, said from the
platform,
"I had my seventeenth conviction on my seventeenth birthday," no
one in the
audience
seemed particularly impressed.
Many had started drinking at twelve, thirteen and fourteen. One said,
"I was an
alcoholic at thirteen, on skid row at fifteen." Another declared,
"I know I was
an
alky at sixteen." One girl said, "I was on the streets at
seventeen, and knew
then I
was an alcoholic."
Commitment to mental hospitals in their early twenties seemed commonplace
among
these AAs. There were enough skid row alumni to form a group of their own.
Another
could have been made up among the former reformatory students. Warden John
C.
Burke
of Wisconsin State Prison, Waupun, greeted a number of his former charges at
the
conference, including the chairman of the host planning committee, who
introduced the
Warden, with a straight face, as "my former landlord." The prison
official told
one
of the sessions that probably eighty per cent of the young convicts in his
institution have a drinking problem.
Several speakers told of lying about their ages to get into armed services:
"because
in uniform I would have no trouble buying drinks." There were frequent
stories
of
broken youthful marriages: "I thought it would settle me down."
So it wasn't surprising to hear speakers say -- in private conversations
-- they
felt
puzzled upon first coming to AA to hear older members say, "You're too
young to
be an
alcoholic." Several reported being advised to "go out and do some
more drinking.
You're not old enough for AA."
As one speaker put it: "I was leaving one of my first meetings when I
overheard
an
older member remark, 'I've spilled more booze on my vest than that young
punk
has
drunk.' Probably he had," continued the thirty-one-year-old
good-humoredly, "but
it
was the alcohol I had drunk, not the liquor he had spilled, which made my
life
unmanageable."
A twenty-eight-year-old, in AA three years now, demonstrated the seriousness
of
his
alcoholism this way: "My drunken escapades made the papers so often
that my
first
wife began to speak of it as my 'column.' Then they began not printing it,
because my
booze troubles just weren't news in our town any more."
He laughed when he recalled the "deep freeze" older members gave
him his first
year.
He recalled one older man who had said, "Never had the DTs? Sonny, go
drink
another
ten years. You're no alky."
The youngster said seriously: "Once the older fellows started laughing
when I
told
them about a marriage problem I had. So, since they assured me I couldn't be
an
alcoholic at my age, I decided I must be a psycho. I kept seeing a
psychiatrist,
and
drinking, for a whole year. Later I learned it isn't how long you have
drunk, or
how
much, but what alcohol has done to your life that makes you eligible for
AA."
Often these young speakers told of being tolerated within groups of older
members,
but never being given any AA jobs to do. "Even now," said a fellow
in his early
thirties, sober over three years, "when I'm sitting in the clubhouse
and a
Twelfth
Step call comes in, they say I'm too young to go on it."
This lack of acceptance has also taken other forms. When a young people's
group
was
formed in one city, an AA clubhouse used by several other groups refused to
let
the
young people meet in one of its rooms, one young "founder"
reported. "But then,"
added the member with a youthful grin, "the clubhouse found it needed
money
badly, so
they let us rent space after all. And lots of them come to our meetings
now." In
fact, one fifty-five-year-old slipper attributes his re-grasp of sobriety to
this
"infant" group.
Such stories were told in private conversation, not in talks from the
platform.
And
only in one of the forty people I talked to did I find anything like anger
about
such
treatment. In that one case, the stinging memory seems a goad that spurs
this
young
fellow into ferocious energy for twelfth-stepping other young guys.
These experiences and reactions are by no means universal among younger AA
members
in all localities, but they had a direct effect on a number of those I
talked to
in
Milwaukee. Younger members began banding together in their own groups. In
some
places, naturally enough, young AA groups were started with high hopes and
flood-tide
energy, but little stable or wise leadership. Groups turned into social
clubs,
or
other Traditions were broken, and groups died. Thus, members of large,
healthy
young
people's groups point out that in some areas the youngsters may miss the
encouragement and interest of older, wiser members, and most attend other AA
meetings, where they find "immediate identification with other young
alcoholics," as
one man put it.
"We find activity," said a thirty-eight-year-old who has been
sober : nine
years.
"We are made members of the group steering committees, we twelfth-step
lots of
other
younger people, and when any of us goes to speak at another group, six or
eight
carloads of us go along."
"Older people always did scare me," one girl admitted. "I
guess we just rebel
more
at our age, even in AA groups. In the younger groups, though, there is no
temptation
to compare my drinking with that of the fellows who reminisce about bathtub
gin
or
speakeasies."
Others took a different tack. "My young group helps me with current
problems,"
one
fellow said. "As a young guy I have lots of domestic, professional and
other
personal
problems. Choosing a career and getting started in it, or starting a family,
are
not
problems most older members are now facing. So we younger ones can face them
together
and help one another. That's in addition to helping each other stay sober,
which
must
come first always, of course."
(In many ways, this was truly more a "family" convention than
other regional AA
conventions I have attended. Many pretty, young, nonalcoholic wives, active
in
local
family Al-Anon groups, helped at every stage in the planning, served as
hostesses and
guides, and talked at both AA and their own meetings. One family present had
four
Alateen members along. Its fifteen-year-old had painted the enormous,
handsome
blue-and-white "Fourth International Conference, Young People in
AA" banner
which
decorated the main AA meeting hall for the Milwaukee sessions.)
If any quality besides enthusiasm and love seemed a hallmark of the brand of
AA
at
the Milwaukee get together, it was seriousness. Healthy, honest
self-criticism,
frank
and open self-inventory and wide varieties of opinion, were evident
constantly.
A thirty-seven-year-old, sober six years, summed up the value of young
people's
groups this way: "We show younger alcoholics that they are not
different just
because
they are young. We show others that you can be young, and alcoholic, yet
still
be
sober and happy in AA. Booze doesn't respect youth any more than it does
age."
The Milwaukee Conference helped prove those facts in a big way and must have
carried
the message to many other young alcoholics, or their friends. Both of
Milwaukee's big
daily newspapers ran many stories about "Young People in AA."
Local ministers and hotel officials also helped, as did many older AA
members
of the
Chicago-Milwaukee area. A Milwaukee clubhouse cooperated and so did the
secretary of
the Milwaukee Central Office. Both Illinois delegates to the Eleventh
General
Service
Conference supported the youth conference with their presence.
Of the thirty-nine AA speakers on the program, only three talked
specifically
about
young people's groups, or the Young People's Conference idea. Others told
their
own
stories, as AAs do everywhere, or addressed themselves to the three theme
words
of
the Conference: Gratitude, Obedience and Devotion.
But do the supporters of these Canadian-American conferences of young people
in
AA
really advocate the formation of more groups designated especially for young
people?
As might be expected among any collection of good AAs, opinions differ, and
each
seems to have a valid foundation in its holder's own individual experience.
A pamphlet distributed at the Milwaukee sessions is entitled "Facts,
Aims,
Purposes
of Young People's Groups in AA in the United States and Canada." It
declares:
"...there is a great need for at least one young people's group in
every city so
the
young coming into AA can get together once a week and discuss their problems
with
other young people of their own age."
Some young members, as we have seen, claim that such groups made it possible
for
them to receive and maintain a sobriety they found impossible in other
groups.
Most
of them insist, though, that it is necessary for any young AA to attend
other
meetings in addition to those for young people.
Other speakers in Milwaukee denied any intention to encourage the formation
of
special groups. "We just want to encourage the acceptance of young
people in any
AA
groups. We do not favor any kind of AA segregation, by age or anything else.
We
do
not seek to divide AA, or set up any separate organization. We just want to
add
an
extra bond of fellowship to the cement of AA."
Three young members in a New England state -- who were not at the
Milwaukee
Convention -- say they have found no need for special young people's
groups.
One twenty-three-year-old mother of two came to AA when she was eighteen.
"I
used to
window-shop the fancy stores on Fifth Avenue, in New York, dead drunk,
dressed
in
sloppy blue jeans and a filthy sweat shirt with university letters on it, so
people
would think I was a college kid! AA is not for kids; it forces us to mature
and
I
didn't want to grow up. So I slipped around for two years before I really
got
sober.
It happened in a regular group."
Her husband was in trouble because of drinking at fifteen, swore off at
eighteen
because of "a car-theft charge." Shaking his head wonderingly, he
says, "I
thought I
was too young to be an alcoholic!" He sobered up in a group full of
older
members.
His buddy's first drinks were morning ones. "I reached under the bed
for the
jug
before I got up, in a summer work camp," he said. "I was fifteen
years old." Ten
years later he came to AA and "slipped around at first. I didn't see
any room in
this
outfit for a young man to 'get ahead' -- that is, get to be group
secretary!" He
laughs
at that now. At the age of thirty he was chosen by the name-in the-hat
method
prescribed in "The Third Legacy Manual" as one of his state's two
delegates to
the
Eleventh General Service Conference in New York.
Do the Young People in AA conferences divert energy that could be better
utilized in
contributions to AA as a whole? Maybe so.
None of the young members on the program in Milwaukee spoke of service to AA
as
General Service Representatives, local Committeemen, or G.S. Conference
Delegates.
(However, the Milwaukee Central Office Secretary says local youngsters are
avid
GSO
supporters.) There were no Grapevine Representatives or contributors among
them.
Little was said of institutional work and nothing about correspondence with
loners;
lack of information about AA as a whole and its Third Legacy seemed on a par
with
what I've found in almost any other AA gathering not specifically devoted to
those
larger, more demanding aspects of worldwide AA service.
There was at the Milwaukee gathering, though, an unusually intense awareness
of
AA
Traditions and the need for Public Information activities by AA members.
Newspaper
reporters were especially well treated. Nonalcoholic guests included the
executive
director of the Chicago Alcoholic Treatment Center, a prison warden, and a
high
school principal. A rehabilitation counselor of Chicago's police department
was
also
present by invitation.
On the value of special young people's groups, here is what one central
office
secretary from a large city said: "These young people's groups are the
lifesavers of
AA in our area. They are actually open to members of all ages but the
service
jobs in
them are held by those under thirty-five. It's from these young people that
we
get
most of the best workers who keep our Central Office functioning. They're
the
ones we
can count on most to take on Twelfth Step jobs, institutional work and
public
information tasks."
One of the older "advisors" of the Milwaukee Conference said:
"We noticed in my
regular group that young people didn't stick with us, and we had a meeting
to
discuss
it one night. We wondered if maybe wasn't our own fault. That's why we
helped
establish a young people's group and now do all we can to help these
conferences. You
see, it's great for us!"
The Milwaukee Conference had three such advisors ("We spoke only when
spoken
to,"
grinned one of them), a practice established at the second youth conference,
in
Chicago in 1959, when the youthful sponsors of the get-together found
themselves
with
some pretty tough problems to lick.
Over objections and warnings by some of those present in Milwaukee, a
permanent
"Advisory Council" was formed there to help perpetuate the youth
conference idea
and
accumulate a body of guiding experience.
Two officers from each of the first four conferences make up the Advisory
Council.
They hope to establish a permanent fund to insure the financial solvency of
future
conferences (incidentally, all who went to Milwaukee, even the speakers,
paid
their
own way); set up their own newsletter and public information activities, and
set
up a
permanent address for the exchange of information about young people in AA.
"We're
not a movement, or a breaking away from AA," one conference leader kept
insisting.
"Our primary purpose is to help carry the message to younger
people."
Perhaps these young people have a genuine, valid need for a new AA service
arm,
in
line with our Ninth Tradition: "... we may create service boards or
committees
directly responsible to those they serve." Perhaps not.
The member I know who has been sober longest seems quite unperturbed by such
new
developments as the young people's conferences. He says, "Don't forget,
we have
a
self-corrective factor in AA. These special groups either function in the
framework
of AA, or they fold up. don't know what we have to be afraid of, as long as
we
put
ourselves truly in God's hands. We ought to do everything we can to
encourage
them,
to help them communicate with alcoholics they can reach and we can't. They
don't
need
our censure. We owe them our love."
I felt quite at home among these younger members. I was impressed by the
quality of
their sobriety, their dedication to AA principles and work, their
determination
generally to add to AA, never to detract from it or divide it. They taught
me a
lot,
and I'll be sentimentally grateful for a long time.
One thing is certain: young people, thank God, are coming to AA in
increasing
numbers. They hold the promise and the power of our future leadership, and
the
older
members must help them to utilize their youth, vitality and great potential.
B.L., New York City
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++++Message 3164. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill Wilson and Sister Ignatia -
Longbeach Convention?
From: Steve Leeds . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 12:04:00 PM
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Hey All,
I have a cassette tape that is marked Sister Ignatia and Bill Wilson -
Longbeach Convention. The recording is old and it's obviously Bill but
I am looking for confermation that the womens voice is that of Sister
Ignatia. Could anyone confirm that she did speak with Bill at that
convention?
Thanks,
Steven
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3165. . . . . . . . . . . . Bill D.
From: Ernest Kurtz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 7:39:00 AM
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Mel and interested others,
Back when I was doing research at GSO in 1976, Nell Wing for sure and, I
think, trustee George G. told me that Bill D's story was not in the
first edition because he wanted to be paid for it.
At best third-hand hearsay to you, but . . . .
ernie k.
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++++Message 3166. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: God as we understand Him
From: Archie Bunkers . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:45:00 PM
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In reading Glenn C.'s response to my original e-mail, I see that I did not
make myself clear enough. I realize that "God as we understand
Him" is a
paraphrase of what James was saying. The Akron AA's knew this too. Could
this early referrence to James be an indication that whoever originated the
Big Book phrase "God as we understand Him" (either Bill W. or
Jimmy B. or
whoever) been paraphasing William James?? My point is, that if this is
true, the Big Book would be that original printed source of the phrase
"God
as we understand Him".
Archie B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Archie Bunkers"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him
> This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf
>
> "William James, stripped of verbiage, says that
> we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."
>
> Is William James the source of the Big Book
> phrase "God as we understand him"??
>
> Archie B.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)
>
> The passage which Archie quotes is from one
> of the four pamphlets we possess which
> were written by the early AA people in Akron.
> They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
> "Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
> "A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
> Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled
> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.
>
> In the passage in question, which says "William
> James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should
> believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"
> it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron
> believed, not that William James wrote that line,
> but instead were agreeing that adding "as we
> understand Him" to the references to God in the
> twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief
> that people of different personality types needed
> different types of spirituality and different kinds
> of conceptions of God.
>
> "God as we understand Him" was not a quote
> from James however, as they give it in this
> pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we
> understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what
> James was saying in the long quotation which they
> give from him, where James says "Religion shall
> mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
> individual men in their solitude, so far as they
> apprehend themselves to stand in relation to
> whatever they may consider the divine."
>
> The early Akron AA people were clearly saying
> in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the
> teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and
> freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who
> followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great
> Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and
> Buddhists, could all join together in following the
> twelve steps and could understand why following
> these spiritual guides to action could lead us to
> the higher spiritual life.
>
> Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,
> which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that
> section, so the group can read in context what
> the early Akron AA people believed:
> _____________________________________
>
> "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"
>
> Part IV
>
> BUT IF OUR CONCEPT of God is on the
> nebulous side, we are offered more concrete
> guidance on the subject of religion and spirituality.
> It is not awesome, abstract and complex, even
> though it seems so at first.
>
> Let's examine what some of the fine minds of
> history -- philosophers, psychologists, educators --
> have to say about religion. Note that none of them,
> with the exception of St. James, is a professional
> religionist.
>
> "Religion is the worship of higher powers from a
> sense of need." --Allan Menzies.
>
> "Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and
> experiences of individual men in their solitude, so
> far as they apprehend themselves to stand in
> relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
> -- William James.
>
> "Religion is the recognition of all our duties as
> divine commands."--Immanual Kant.
>
> "Religion is that part of human experience in
> which man feels himself in relation with powers
> of psychic nature, usually personal powers, and
> makes use of them."--James Henry Leuba.
>
> "Pure religion and undefiled before our God and
> Father is this, to visit the fatherless and windows
> in their affliction and to keep oneself unspotted
> from the world."--The General Epistle of James,
> 1:27.
>
> One cannot but be impressed with the similarity
> of these definitions to our own Twelve Steps.
>
> The Menzies definition is nothing more than a
> condensed version of the first three steps wherein
> we admit we are beaten, come to believe a Power
> greater than ourselves can restore us, and turn our
> wills and lives over to that Power.
>
> William James, stripped of verbiage, says that we
> should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM.
>
> Immanuel Kant also tells us to turn our wills and lives
> over to God, and then hints at Steps Five to Eleven,
> wherein we are admonished to give our lives a
> thorough housecleaning. For such confessions and
> restitutions are without question divine commands.
>
> James Henry Leuba hints at the Twelfth Step,
> where we make use of our newly found powers.
>
> And all we need to do in the St. James passage is
> to substitute the word "Alcoholic" for "Father less
> and Widows" and we have Step Twelve. As a
> matter of fact, before we gave up alcohol we
> were very definitely fatherless and widows.
>
> The spiritual life is by no means a Christian monopoly.
> There is not an ethical religion in the world today
> that does not teach to a great extent the principles
> of Love, Charity and Good Will.
>
> The Jehovah of the Hebrews is a stern God who
> will have vengeance if his laws are broken, yet the
> great Hebrew prophets taught a message of social
> justice. Incidentally, the modern Jewish family is one
> of our finest examples of helping one another. When
> a member of the family gets into trouble of any
> kind, the relatives, from parents to cousins, rally
> around with advice, admonition, and even financial
> assistance. This, incidentally, may be one reason
> there are not more Jewish members of AA. The
> family, in many cases, can handle the alcoholic
> problem.
>
> Followers of Mohammed are taught to help the
> poor, give shelter to the homeless and the traveler,
> and conduct themselves with personal dignity.
>
> Consider the eight-part program laid down in
> Buddhism: Right view, right aim, right speech, right
> action, right living, right effort, right mind- edness
> and right contemplation. The Buddhist philosophy,
> as exemplified by these eight points, could be
> literally adopted by AA as a substitute for or
> addition to the Twelve Steps. Generosity, universal
> love and welfare of others rather than
> considerations of self are basic to Buddhism.
>
> The ultimate aim of all men is peace of spirit.
> Without a spiritual life there can be no tranquility
> and serenity.
>
> St. Augustine says, "Peace is the tranquility of order."
> We will find peace when our lives are rightly ordered.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
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++++Message 3167. . . . . . . . . . . . RE: God as we understand Him
From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 2/13/2006 4:46:00 PM
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Hi Archie
On the matter of "God as we understand Him" it might be useful to
examine more of the pamphlet "Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics
Anonymous." The pamphlet is far more historically endearing than it is
factually enlightening.
Section IV of the pamphlet contains citations from Allan Menzies,
William James, Immanuel Kant, James Henry Leuba and "The General
Epistle of James" 1:27 (also called "The Book of James" in
other
literature). In the 2nd paragraph of section IV it states:
"Let's examine what some of the fine minds of history-philosophers,
psychologists, educators-have to say about religion. Note that none of
them, with the exception of St James, is a professional religionist."
Ouch!
James is the brother of Jesus. He was a martyr for his faith and is
the source of the maxim "faith without works is dead" (James
2:17). I
had to wince at describing him as a "professional religionist."
But
this is the difficulty that occurs when a member's (or group of
members') viewpoint is given the aura of factual history when it is no
more than the substance of opinion.
The pamphlet goes on to creatively cite from William James' "The
Varieties of Religious Experience:"
"Religion shall mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves
to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine."
The pamphlet then creatively interprets the citation as "William
James, stripped of verbiage, states that we should believe in God AS
WE UNDERSTAND HIM."
Well William James has been stripped of verbiage. He didn't quite
state what is being attributed to him. An accurate and contextually
complete citation would read:
"Religion, therefore, as I now ask you arbitrarily to take it, shall
mean for us THE FEELINGS, ACTS, AND EXPERIENCES OF INDIVIDUAL MEN IN
THEIR SOLITUDE, SO FAR AS THEY APPREHEND THEMSELVES TO STAND IN
RELATION TO WHATEVER THEY MAY CONSIDER THE DIVINE. Since the relation
may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of
religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies,
and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow. In these
lectures, however, as I have already said, the immediate personal
experiences will amply fill our time, and we shall hardly consider
theology or ecclesiasticism at all."
As far as the assertion about what William James stated, I'd put it in
the same niche as the description of St James being a "professional
religionist." It's probably well intended but not at all well stated.
It's much more poetic license rather than a concise summation of
James' magnificent book.
William James didn't write about a variety of understandings. He wrote
about a variety of experiences and conversions (some occurring
suddenly and some occurring gradually). His book certainly allowed the
notion of individual understandings of God among the varieties of
religious experiences but I wouldn't focus on William James as the
primary source of the notion.
In AA history, it is likely that William James' book helped to
reinforce a notion already planted beforehand by Ebby T and the Oxford
Group. Bill W was given the book "Varieties ..." during his last
stay
at Towns Hospital by either Ebby T or Rowland H.
Something else occurred prior to that is likely more relevant and
described in the Big Book (which is sometimes underappreciated for the
rich history it contains). In Chapter 1, Bill W recounts a poignant
and profound revelation for which Ebby T deserves credit along with
the Oxford Group:
[Big Book pg 12]
"Despite the living example of my friend there remained in me the
vestiges of my old prejudice. The word God still aroused a certain
antipathy. When the thought was expressed that there might be a God
personal to me this feeling was intensified. I didn't like the idea. I
could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind
or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the
Heavens, however loving His sway might be. I have since talked with
scores of men who felt the same way.
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't
you choose your own conception of God?"
That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in
whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the
sunlight at last.
It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater
than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I
saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of
complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I
have it? Of course I would!
Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want
Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride
and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view."
This goes on to be repeated and reinforced throughout the remaining
chapters of the Big Book. Choosing one's own conception of God also
has the brilliance that the individual cannot blame anyone else for
the understanding and that they are responsible for it - good or bad.
As for the addition of "God as we understand Him" in the 12 Steps
(along with "Power greater than ourselves") both Jim B and Hank P
are
credited with being the primary influence ("AA Comes of Age" pgs
166-167). Both claimed to be atheists at the time.
Although James' book was popular reading in early AA, the Oxford
Group's principles and practices (and Sam Shoemaker) carried much
influence - probably more than William James even though he is
mentioned twice in the Big Book.
Other influences such as Emmet Fox in "Power Through Constructive
Thinking" and "Sermon on the Mount" and a number of other
authors and
books cannot be excluded either for their influence in both NY and
Akron. Dick B, in his writings about the Rev Sam Shoemaker, offers
quite a number of enlightening citations from Shoemaker's writings -
among them:
"Security lies in a faith in God which includes an experiment. It lies
in believing that God is" (Shoemaker, National Awakening, pp. 40-41).
"When we come to believe in God at all, we come to believe in Him as
having something definite to say about our lives. To believe in the
fact of the will of God is only to believe in God in the concrete"
(Shoemaker, Religion That Works, p. 55).
"Opening their minds to as much of God as he understood, removing
first the hindrance of self-will" (Shoemaker, Children of the Second
Birth, p. 47).
What I'm driving at is I don't see how the notion of "God as you
understand Him" can be attributed to a single primary source. It has
far too much of an ecumenical nature for conversion and redemption.
The idea certainly has served AA well - except when degraded to the
level of "door knob" and other things of that ilk. (Rule #62).
Cheers
Arthur
-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Archie Bunkers
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 11:38 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] God as we understand Him
This is an excerpt from http://hindsfoot.org/AkrSpir.pdf
"William James, stripped of verbiage, says that
we should believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM."
Is William James the source of the Big Book
phrase "God as we understand him"??
Archie B.
________________________________
From the moderator (Glenn C., South Bend, Indiana)
The passage which Archie quotes is from one
of the four pamphlets we possess which
were written by the early AA people in Akron.
They are "A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"Second Reader for Alcoholics Anonymous,"
"A Guide to the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics
Anonymous," and this one, which is entitled
"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous.
In the passage in question, which says "William
James, stripped of verbiage, says that we should
believe in God AS WE UNDERSTAND HIM,"
it seems to me that the early AA's in Akron
believed, not that William James wrote that line,
but instead were agreeing that adding "as we
understand Him" to the references to God in the
twelve steps was in agreement with James' belief
that people of different personality types needed
different types of spirituality and different kinds
of conceptions of God.
"God as we understand Him" was not a quote
from James however, as they give it in this
pamphlet. The pamphlet says that "God as we
understand Him" was a shorter way of saying what
James was saying in the long quotation which they
give from him, where James says "Religion shall
mean for us the feelings, acts and experiences of
individual men in their solitude, so far as they
apprehend themselves to stand in relation to
whatever they may consider the divine."
The early Akron AA people were clearly saying
in that pamphlet that Christians who followed the
teaching of the epistle of James, skeptics and
freethinkers like Immanuel Kant, Catholics who
followed the teachings of St. Augustine the great
Doctor of the Church, Jews, Muslims, and
Buddhists, could all join together in following the
twelve steps and could understand why following
these spiritual guides to action could lead us to
the higher spiritual life.
Here is that particular section of the pamphlet,
which is Part IV, giving the entire text of that
section, so the group can read in context what
the early Akron AA people believed:
_____________________________________
"Spiritual Milestones in Alcoholics Anonymous"
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