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575 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 0:01am Subject: Re: Repetition Compulsion > REPETITION COMPULSION (Molnos, A 98, a psychotherapist) > The woman who always chooses a punisher for partner, or the talented young man who is always wronged by a person in authority, a teacher or a boss are both examples. Repetition compulsion nearly always produces harm, thus, becoming synonymous with neurotic self-destructive behavior. How the unconscious mechanisms behind this phenomenon work are less clear. Is the person internally compelled to return to a painful pattern of past interaction in the vain hope of resolving it only to fail once more? Or is the repetition of the awful pain a well-deserved punishment for sins committed and, therefore, an alleviation from guilt? Or, on the contrary, the past pattern is repeated because it is familiar and therefore "safer" than any change towards the unknown? sent in by YM. This is a good description of codepenencies but I must disagree that these relationships always produce harm and are for any of the reasons suggested. The toxic mind theory now makes clear the unconscious mechanisms. The brain is brilliantly constructed for healing the damage caused by abusive childhood relationships. Codependences are formed unconsciously to provide a stage for releasing the justifiable anger at our early caretakers. We choose substitute parental figures so as to re-enact the childhood trauma and release the toxic neurochemicals that store repressed anger. Characteristics of current and early abusers are stored in the same neural pathways, so when getting angry at a current abuser, we are also getting angry at parents and this helps healing. The self-help measures allow us to redirect the anger more toward parents so as to heal even more quickly. Now that this is known, these relationships cannot only be seen as useful, but if both partners are not in denial these relationships can become healthy. Ellie
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety 576 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 0:31am Subject: The little girl letter > Dear Ellie, > That "little girl letter" was amazing! It gave me the idea that maybe you should put a Guestbook feature on one of your websites where we can post letters to our parents - anonymously if we want to! I'd love to do one of those, where it stays up there in cyber space without anyone knowing who wrote all those bad things in little girl talk, raging against her parents! > > I have to tell you of another related interesting experience. The man whom I was dating and who had so many problems came back and begged me to date him again and made all kinds of promises, so I gave him one more chance. It didn't last more than 2 days! > > He broke all his promises that he made for our second day together! Also, he started sarcastically calling me "MOM"!! Also, while we were together, he received a typewritten letter from his mother who is 79 now and he barely read it; he wadded it up and threw it in the trash. I asked him why he did that, and he said because it was all negative stuff about him. > > No one, no one, has ever looked to ME to be a Mother Figure for them (I've always been more the 'little girl' figure who gets taken care of in a relationship). I was not prepared to play the role of "Bad Mother" to him and I never will for any man. > > He literally *drove* me to leave him again...it was like a strong compulsion was driving him to make the promises as obviously as he possibly could, and then purposely break them *right away* so that I would leave him again and he could fulfill his compulsory cycle of abandonment by his mother! > God, I'm soooo glad he went through this cycle so quickly this time, so that I could get out fast and see it so transparently for myself. Up until this happened, I was mostly listening to other people's advice about him and there was always that lingering doubt in my mind that maybe I was passing up a good thing, but now I've seen it with my own eyes, and what an eye-opener that was!! YM Yes, he was trying to get you to be the bad mother and abandon him so he could have his anger at his mother. You were a bad mother for him in rejecting him, and you did him a favor. Even post flood I had a friend who called me on Mothers Day to wish me a happy day. I told him flatly I did not appreciate it, and later I ended that friendship. I gave him a pamphlet but he's not ready. He's off looking for more bad Moms. Great idea about posting childlike letters. I don't know about putting them on my web sites, but send any to me and I'll post them on this eGroup. I'm thinking of not having it a restricted group anymore since it's anonymous anyway. I'm using a code because I'm mixing you all up in my mind, and this helps me remember who you are. If I make the list unrestricted the Archives are permanently open to anyone. If anyone does not want a post put on the list please write Do Not Post when you send me an email. I would suggest keep using the self help measures and writing such a letter when you are really in a rage such as I was. The closer you are to post flood, the more likely you will behave somewhat childlike. Ellie
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety 577 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 2:06am Subject: The needy Mom > << Do you relate to having had to suppress anger as a child with your mother rather than you father? > Ellie >> > > Oh, BOY, would you be my therapist? You hit the nail on the head with that one! Daddy was a traveling show salesman - wholesale ladies shoes - for about 40 years and so half the year he would travel for 5 days of the week and so that left just me and my mom, I have two sisters but they are much older than me, one is 13 years older and the other is 7 years older, so it always seemed to me that I was alone with my mom during the week. She is such a bitter old woman and has been all her life, when my dad was still alive I loved nothing better than going to the club he belonged to on Saturday mornings and getting to have breakfast or coffee with him without having to deal with my mother. My mom just could never understand why I never wanted to come and spend a couple of hours with her by myself. She is now 77 and legally blind for the past 7 years and when my dad dies three years ago I kind of flipped out and became super angry at the whole world - I was numb with grief over my father - he was my best friend - and I was the only one left here in town to take care of my mom. I told my sister who lives an hour away that she could take care of mom and I literally didn't speak to my mom for almost a year, my sister did it all for her. My sister finally got mad about a year ago and told me she wasn't going to come into town anymore so it was up to me to take care of mom, so I had no choice. When my dad first died I took my mom to church on Saturday night and out to dinner a few times and once when we went shopping for clothes she was making all these plans for EVERY Saturday night for us and I finally had to tell her that I wasn't about to take her to church every weekend and that I needed to have some time for myself. that is when I distanced myself from her. Anyway, now that is has all fallen back into my lap I take her to the store every two weeks and I get the hell out of there as fast as I can. She complains to my sisters that I only spend about 15 minutes with her when I do come over to help her pay bills or whatever, but she just cant understand that she was never there for me in the past so why should I be there for HER now? I feel bad sometimes, cause she really did come through for me when I lost my good paying job of ten years last year and she paid off my mortgage on my house in April for my birthday but she seems to try and hold her money over our heads to try and gain our love. Oh, well, sorry this is so long, but your comment really hit close to home. ES I'm so glad you identify with this. You don't need me as a therapist now that you know where your suffering originated. You are your own therapist when you use the self-help measures. Please print out the article as a pamphlet and start redirected anger to your mother whenever you have excitatory nervous symptoms. This includes any guilt you may feel about not being there for her. Guilt is anger turned inward, it's your mother's voice saying 'you're a bad child for not being there for me'. I realize you may need to help her, but get your anger out as often as possible using the self-help measures. My aunt who is 98 was my mother substitute for years. She spent huge amounts of money sending me on wonderful trips for which I am grateful, but now that she is in good care in a retirement residence I don't fall into my old habit of flying out every month or two to visit. We have a pleasant phone relationship. Don't think about what your mother did for you when you need to get the anger out. You don't need to recall any specific childhood trauma. Keep reading the pamphlet and all the articles and the Archives. I'm so glad you are here. Ellie
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety 579 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 9:31pm Subject: Post flood issues > Most of my anxiety has been over issues relating to employees these past two years, I am sure those are detox crisis concerning past bosses who made me do all the work, they would leave for weeks on vacation, not check in or check on me, they just trusted me, I was thinking tonight how furious I was at them back then, but too afraid to say anything. I did more than I was expected and did what had to be done for customer service, as being left to fin for myself, I had to answer to the customers not the boss, since I 'was trained'. So now I find myself in these situations where employees don't do what they are expected, I'm wondering if I'm trying to get them to do what I did, reenacting the role, if I find I am not spending all the time I could at the store, I feel guilty, and a flashback comes back from one of those bosses, how I felt about them not showing up and doing their fair share. Now this has been since post flood, and you know how I've been with alot of present day situations and not dealing with anger immediately. There is some relation here to this, I think it's time to release some of that anger of 5 years ago at that boss that was so horribly abusive verbally and physically he wasn't there to help me run 'his' business, I eventually laid my key on the table and said I won't be back, and don't you dare ask me why, you figure it out. I had his customers call me and beg me to go back to work, they quit trading with him, he was a number one jerk and they saw how he treated me on the job, even. I thought I had gotten alot of that anger out back then, did not know really to direct it to him then, except I directed the anger of his verbal abuse, but didn't deal with the employer issues of how he wasn't there, I just told myself that I was a good employee, worked hard, did more than I was expected, learned the ropes, I could have opened my own optical shop making glasses I learned everything about it and built his business from $1,000 weekly income for him, to $15,000 weekly by good customer service, and he did reward me with good raises, everytime he'd be a jerk, he'd give me a raise, if I came home crying, we knew I'd get a raise the next day, worked there 4 years. Then next job I took, same thing happened and I confronted that boss weekly on his shenanigans, so there was no anger pent up with him. So somewhere in this whole mess of employees, I'm confused with my role and theirs and have some anger to release, then I bet I am not nearly as full of anxiety as of the last year. YS This from someone post flood is a good reminder that it is important to continue to process anger when it surfaces in current interactions, and often the anger is mixed with repressed anger from past experiences that are not from early childhood. Post flood again is an arbitrary point at which most of the anger from childhood is gone, but there may be anger from the more recent past that needs to be released and redirected. I am also still finding the need to release and redirect anger at my past boss. He acknowledged he believed and supported my theory (it's based mostly on his work) but he has tried to silence my discovery. He was also my first psychiatrist who gave me my first drug, and I have had to process anger about having been kept on drugs non-stop for thirty years. Ellie
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety 580 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 9:44pm Subject: Intoxication of falling in love > News Release: > LONDON (Reuters) - For some people it's palpitations, a sense of euphoria and breathlessness. Others say sweaty palms, light-headedness and a gut feeling are sure signs of being truly, madly, deeply in love. > > But scientists at University College London now have more concrete proof of whether or not it's the real thing -- brain scans. They have shown that the first flushes of true love produce visible changes in the brains of people that can be seen with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). > > ``We looked at the activity in their brain produced by a picture of the person they love,´´ Semir Zeki, a professor of neurobiology, said in atelephone interview Wednesday. > > ``There are four small areas of the brain in which activity goes up and that increase correlates with their viewing of the picture of the person they are in love with.´´ > > Zeki and his colleague Andreas Bartels gave MRI scans to 16 volunteers who said they were in love. Lie detector tests were also used as an objective means of confirming their feelings. > > Each volunteer was shown a picture of their beloved and a photograph of a friend whom they had known for a similar period of time. > > Whenever a picture of the loved one was shown it produced chemical changes in the brain that were not active when they were shown pictures of friends. The changes were clear-cut in each volunteer whenever they looked on the image of the one they loved. > > ``The emotional state is generated by activity in these parts of the brain,´´ Zeki explained. > > ``These parts of the brain are also the parts which are active in euphoric states generated by exogenous substances such as cocaine. Romantic love is to for many people, at any rate, intoxicating.´´ sent in by YM Yes, the person we fall in love with (who probably resembles a parent) triggers detox crises and excess noradrenaline is released into synapses, causing increased nerve transmission, the excitatory symptoms, and a 'high.' We may think that person is Mr. or Mrs. Perfect but there is something abusive about his or her personality. Cocaine also works by causing a release of excess noradrenaline. Ellie The Biology of Emotions: http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety
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> First of all, I think that this 'defense mechanism' can also be defined in areas other than relationships - it could include repetitive behaviors in many other areas of our lives. Such as repeat failures in career, school, diet, attempts to "get it together" or gain control in our lives and fulfill our parent's expectation of us. >
> Possibly we created some neural pathways by repetitive behavior and that is one reason why it is so hard to consciously change behavioral patterns. New neural pathways need to be created... >
> If our "inner child" is still rebelling against our parent's words that are in our head, then we are going to rebel in our outward actions against them, too. If we are getting a negative "payoff" then logically it must be some sort of self-punishing, masochistic behavior. >
> Or, in a case like I just mentioned, it could be a way of saying "See, my parents were right about me all along; I'm just a failure and I will never live up to their expectations." That way, our parents remain as gods to us, and we can go back to believing in Santa Claus and Easter Bunny, in a metaphorical manner of speaking (magical thought). >
> What could the unconscious motivation of wanting to prove our parents right be, if what they said about us was negative? YM When receptors are clogged up with toxins nerve impulses are diverted. Since thinking is processed by the transmission of nerve impulses, when they are diverted thinking becomes askew, even irrational and delusional. We invent all kinds of reasons for why we do things that are not consistent with why we really do them. Consciously we may want to prove our parents right or God-like because we want to believe they loved us in the true sense of love, which I like to define as 'caring about the well being of another.' But this is a delusion. We unconsciously need to feel that they are putting us down so we can have our anger at them. I wouldn't try to figure out motivations, most of the psychological explanations are created by people with toxic minds, who don't yet know the 'why' of all this. You are so right in saying, 'New neural pathways need to be created' but it is a Recreating of normal pathways, ie when the toxins are released by using the self-help measures then nerve impulses are no longer diverted, compulsive behavior and false notions of why we do things clear up. Ellie The Biology of Emotions: http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety
Ellie
http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety 584 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Jul 7, 2000 10:38pm Subject: Princess Power > I always felt left out and wanted to "belong" in an upper middle class manner. I envied rich girls with good taste and a big social life and at the same time I ridiculed them and labeled them "trivial" and "air heads." >
> Since my depression lifted, I gave myself permission to dress nicely get my haircut and colored and enjoy outings with friends. I love it and can't find anything worthless about being a "princess". I even got custom license plates that say DIVA 4. I built myself a little princess identity and feel very together in it. I seemed to have an excellent instinct for selecting just what I needed to achieve this mini royal status. It isn't empty or meaningless. I thoroughly enjoy being a "together person." Which puts me in mind of a funny saying, "I've got my *hit together and I'm standing in it." AD You ARE a royal princess. There is no one you will envy when post flood. Keep redirecting and tell us about how you redirect that rage. Ellie The Biology of Emotions: http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety
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> How did I do him a favor if he remains in complete denial about what he was doing? I couldn't get him to acknowledge *any* anger at his mother or that he felt neglected as a child. YM It sounds like he's not at a bottom in relationships, so one rejection is not going to do the trick, but if you have shared the truth with him, it may plant a seed, and later on he may be ready to look at the cause of his relationship problems. I had many, many rejections before I was ready for help. Ellie The Biology of Emotions: http://home.earthlink.net/~clearpathway OR: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Sauna/2579 The longer version, the scientific paper, and my story: http://pages.nyu.edu/~er26 To join the supportive eGroup: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Depression-Anxiety
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