This file contains all the messages in the Yahoo group currently located at the link below. This will allow you to read through the messages off-line
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276 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 6:35am Subject: The purpose of the list I want to apologize for letting the list get a bit interactive and again to say the purpose of the list is not group therapy or discussion, but a place to share how people use the self-help measures and to post stories of progress. Please continue to reply to any posts, send me any questions or complaints, and let me know if you have new ways of using the measures and how you are progressing. I will try to be more careful about what I post. I get lazy and it's OK with me that I don't do it perfectly, but I do want to make it a more useful list and a place of encouragement and hope. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 6:51am Subject: Sunshine Now that I'm a bit clearer - I'm in the Muddy Basin phase and experiencing some grief and craziness but hardly any depression - I'm trying to strike a balance between the redirecting and being conscious of my behavior, etc., and a meditation technique of impersonalizing, witnessing and detaching from my "stuff." Without the redirecting work, the meditation would be avoidance and denial, but I think it works this way. My other almost daily outlet that helps is working out at the gym. I think the daily aerobics and weightlifting routine helps in the process of clearing the neural pathways. By the way, many on the PaleoFood list that I'm on are discussing depression lately. I mentioned the Toxic Mind theory; hope some will take a look. Most of them are convinced that the problem of depression is almost completely solved by correct diet. I've noticed how much walking in the sunlight (which even in cold February already feels like Spring!) makes me feel so grounded and great. Wishing you a sunny, beautiful week -- Love, Shirely Exercise is a good way to rev up the sympathetic nervous system while redirecting. I hope people in prisons will be able to use this in their recovery. I identify with enjoying the Spring already. Another thing that has happened for me is that bedtime used to be my favorite time--I think it was my suicidal tendency--now my favorite time is when I wake up. Ellie 278 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 7:34am Subject: Symptoms of codependency > Ellie (and Sally)-- > I really resonate with what both of you said here (re: staying needy). Just one addition: I'd add that most of us tried being absolutely PERFECT first for Mom and Dad. Only when we found out that no matter how hard we tried to please, Mom and Dad were still completely unimpressed, did we try the opposite tack of getting attention by screwing up, and we didn't consciously, purposely do it. Shirley I think we did not intend to be judgmental but to point out the symptoms of codependency, and I agree it's completely unconscious. We are innocent of all behavior that results from the toxicosis in our brains. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 7:50am Subject: Codependency I find codependent behavior directed at me abusive. I'm likely to confront it calmly and hope that people on this list can do so also. My reason for not wanting to do it anymore on the list is that I think it's better to do it one to one. Hopefully the people on the list have already acknowledged that they are codependent and are using the self-help measures to recover from this basic addiction. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 9:00am Subject: Socializing > On a personal note, the big issue that keeps "haunting" me is being at a party and feeling at a loss for meaningful connecting (or even superficial) conversation. My husband and I have many friends and will soon be building our home in a wonderful rural neighborhood surround by several warm families that we interact with frequently. I make the effort to reach out but always feel awkward and left out even though in reality I know I could spend as much time with them as I would like and they are always available. It is me. I put up the barriers but not on purpose. I am afraid. I am shy. I am awkward and then that makes me feel stupid and then I really shut down. My husband says I always seem to be enjoying myself so I am good at hiding it. I want to feel warmly towards people and join in comfortably with their conversations, activities and lives. Any suggestions for redirecting at those times. I come home feeling absolutely awful and am wanting to isolate and avoid people to avoid the feelings that come up in social gatherings. You talked of feeling so comfortable around people--this would be the greatest thing for me to enjoy and experience. I do get a lot of support from reading the list and appreciate the hard work and realness from you and the list. Love Cindy One of the things Janov talks about in post primal people is that we are not big anymore on social events, I think meaning in the sense of joining clubs or needing TOO much of the party kind of socializing. But that's not to put down going to parties and enjoying people. I haven't been to any parties for a while, but it's not because I feel awkward or uncomfortable there. I can 'meaningfully connect' as you say, even with storekeepers, and I enjoy people. I find I am more and more interested in people's lives, and people open up to me because I am 'present' mentally. And being present mentally means I'm not busy thinking I'm stupid. I haven't been to any parties for a while, so I'm not coming from experience here. But if you feel awkward or shy it does sound like a need to do some more redirecting to parents, which you could do mentally right at the party, try the 'get out of my head' to your parents who made you feel 'stupid'. I have a feeling if you do some more redirecting that you will be more and more at ease, need to connect superficially less and less, and find ways to connect meaningfully with those people who are available at the parties to do that with you. You might even enjoy the superficial conversations and laugh with them, knowing you are more in touch with your self esteem than they are. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 10:27am Subject: Re: Socializing > Ellie, I can relate to Cindy, as before I did the major work of redirecting some 15 years ago, I couldn't talk in front of a crowd, I dreaded walking into a party, felt like I wanted to be the 'wallflower' -just was uneasy, I relished the day that I could become the talk of the party, walk in and announce, 'hey how you guys doing', etc., instead of being so shy. I believe with the simple redirecting when excitatory symptoms arise, the shyness will subside all by itself, at least it did with me. Sally 282 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Wed Feb 23, 2000 5:59pm Subject: Socializing I wanted to mention that most of my socializing in the past was with codependent friends. I used to count my social well being and self worth by how many birthday cards I got. Those relationships fell apart as I became healthy and I did wonder if I was meant to isolate and be estranged from the world for the rest of my life. I don't think God gave us this recovery to become lonely and antisocial. But I do think the long muddy basin period of adjustment can make us feel this way. I think the codependent feelings of craving lots of people slowly diminish and in a year or so we form healthier more rewarding relationships, but with fewer people. I can truly say I don't feel lonely and when I do interact with people I feel very close to them even though the contact may be brief. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 4:21am Subject: Socializing post flood > Ellie, you know I do the same thing, brief meeting of someone and feel completely connected, at my husbands mothers funeral, an aunt of my mother in laws was there, I had never met, she was 72 and we instantly bonded and in 2 days of being together almost cried when we parted, was awesome and back in Jan. met with a group of women at a workshop for crafters and we all bonded immediately as if we had known each other before, immediately began funning around and kidding, was an awesome feeling and experience, closer than a brother type thing. This is new experiences for me this year. I am quite amazed at the clarity of relationships. An old friend of mine called yesterday, haven't talked to her in ages, she is so full of self pity and codependency, I wanted to be ill, and I am usually drawn to people like her but I have no inclination to befriend her, I spoke to her and gave her truth of her situation and left it at that. I am sometimes amazed at the progress I have achieved just in the past few months. Sally Thank you...Ellie 285 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 8:38am Subject: Hope for the world in many languages Anyone here from a foreign country who wants to send it to leaders?...it's in many languages as a pdf file that can be printed out as a pamphlet. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Thu Feb 24, 2000 9:46am Subject: Codependency Dear Ellie, Sorry for asking those stupid questions, but I'm not knowing the angloam terminology of psychology: what exactly means codependency? What does it to me? Was I codependent when I fell in love, for example? What are codependent friends? Sorry to bother but these questions might be uninteresting for the most of you. Molly Dear Molly, The term codependency may not be popular in your country. It is really a term that means being addicted to people. As children whose parents could not love us, we kept searching for that love in others, yes, falling in love, and looking for substitute parents in relationships. Below are some of the characteristics. I wouldn't worry too much about what it actually is if you are using the self-help measures. After a while your craving for codependent relationships will diminish, and in a year or so it will have no meaning for you. Ellie
CO-DEPENDENCY By now, many people have heard the term "co-dependency". That is because the syndrome of co-dependency is so widespread, and it appears with ever increasing frequency. What is co-dependency, exactly? And why is it harmful? Why should we care about this strange sounding phenomenon? Co-dependency is actually an umbrella term; it represents an entire range of feelings, beliefs about ourselves, behaviors and symptoms. The main characteristic is a BIG focus on another person. This is usually our loved one- spouse, significant other, lover, boyfriend/girlfriend. But a person who is co-dependent often is focused on EVERYBODY else, rather than on her/himself. For example, when going out to a restaurant with a group, everyone might be trying to decide on where to go. The co-dependent person will demur, saying, "I don't care, anywhere is ok with me." While this can be a very useful strategy in a group and make getting places easier, for the co-dependent, this lack of decision-making ability and knee-jerk compliance is a big problem. The co-dependent becomes so compliant and passive, eager to please the others that s/he really does forget to know what s/he wants/likes/prefers!! Typically, the co-dependent person came from a dysfunctional home in which their emotional needs were not met. Their parents were not able to provide the attention, warmth and responsiveness which kids need in order to feel that their needs count. So, they grew up feelings that their needs did NOT matter, that their desires were unimportant, that they themselves were 2nd class citizens. Over time, the co-dependent person actually FORGETS what her or his needs, desires, feelings about things even are! In one cartoon which captures this dynamic, the husband and wife are looking at each other over their menus in a restaurant. The husband says to the wife, "I forget, which one of us doesn't like fish?" Of course, as kids, we try and try to get the response we need from our parents...at least until we give up completely. But we remain always drawn to that same sort of familiar person...an emotionally unavailable person whom we can try to get love from, whom we can try to change. The need to re-play the childhood drama and TRY, TRY, TRY to achieve a different ending is so intense, that it determines even the type of person the co-dependent is drawn to! A person who is kind, stable, reliable and interested would not be attractive, typically, to the co-dependent person...they would appear "boring." Having received very little nurturing, the co-dependent tries to fill this unmet need vicariously, by becoming a care-giver, especially to any person who appears in some way needy. Many consequences flow from this sorry state of affairs. For one, co-dependents become addicted to emotional pain and to unhealthy relationships. They are drawn to people who are not available to them, or who reject them or abuse them. They often develop unhealthy relationships that eventually become unbearable. Because relationships hurt so much, co-dependents are more in touch with the dream of how the relationship COULD be, rather than the reality of the situation. The co-dependent is often immobilized by romantic obsessions. They search for the "magical quality" in others to make them feel complete. They might idealize other people and endow them with powerful symbolism. In the relationship, the co-dependent will do anything to keep it from dissolving. This is because s/he is terrified of abandonment, the same psychic abandonment s/he felt as a kid when the parents were not there. So nothing is too much trouble, takes too much time or is too expensive if it will "help" the person the co-dependent is involved with. Co-dependents are willing to take more than 50% of the responsibility, guilt and blame in any relationship (one person told me that when people bumped into her, she was the one who said, "I'm sorry.") Accustomed to lack of love in a relationship, co-dependents are willing to wait, hope, and try harder to please. At the same time, they have a desperate need to control the relationship. This is because the need to exact the missing love and security s the foremost motivation in any relationship for a co-dependent. Co-dependent people mask these efforts to control people and situations as "being helpful." In fact, attempts to "help" other people, when these others are adults, almost always have elements of control in them. The paradox here is that co-dependents really fear relationships, because of their bad track record at home! But they continually search for them. In the relationship, they fear abandonment and rejection, or they are chronically angry. But outside of a relationship, they feel empty and incomplete. This is because their self-esteem is critically low, and deep inside, there is some sort of belief that they do not deserve the love they seek, they do not deserve to be happy. Rather, they must work to earn the right to be happy...and of course, they never win. By being drawn to people with problems that need fixing, or by being enmeshed in situations that are chaotic, uncertain and emotionally painful, they avoid focusing on their responsibility to themselves. While constantly seeking intimacy with another person, the "desperate" quality of their needs makes true intimacy impossible. In trying to conceal the demanding-ness from themselves and others, they grow more isolated and alienated from themselves and from the very people they long to be close to! They may be predisposed emotionally and often biochemically to becoming addicted to drugs, alcohol, and/or certain foods, especially sugary ones. They may have a tendency toward episodes of depression, which they try to forestall through the excitement provided by unstable relationships. No doubt about it, co-dependency can be a serious, even fatal addiction. Most of us have some of these characteristics, at least at times. Ellie 287 From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Fri Feb 25, 2000 6:00am Subject: Beginning the work > Dear Ellie, > I am beginning to express a few of my anger and redirect it toward my parents and other authorities of my childhood. I don't see any improvement in my mood yet but I think it's a bit early. My principal problem is that until now I have NEVER express any emotions. I didn't want to show my feelings (what a shame to be happy, sad or angry! an inferiority). We are all introverts in my family (parents and my 2 sisters). During my childhood, I nearly never talk and everyone (especially my mother) always criticize me for that (of course that didn't improve my lack of communication!). So today, it is very difficult to get angry and it requires me a lot of energy. > > I am also reading Alice Miller's books. Many things are becoming clear in my mind. Now I am looking for a good psychologist who are using Miller's theories. Do you know any psychologist or group for adults near Paris? For 2 months, I am doing an analyses but I doubt of the efficiency. It doesn't help me to express anything as I only gently talk with the therapist. I plan to ask her if she agrees with Miller's concepts and maybe stop if she does not. Fritz Dear Fritz, Yes, talk therapy doesn't work. If you find a therapist who understands Miller's concepts you might give her The Biology of Emotions article, the Testimonials and the Abstract, and tell her you want to use these measures in your therapy. Otherwise I would quit too. You can recover with just the self-help measures. I did. I'm so glad you are beginning to use the measures and if you can do some vigorous pounding on a bed, and yelling if you can, and really letting the anger out and REDIRECTING it, you should feel an improvement in your mood. You then may experience some depression, but don't worry...it will lift the next time you do some releasing and redirecting of anger. It is a periodic detoxification process, and your mood swings will be less often and less intense with time. I identify so much with the life long lack of emotions. My mother who caused me to feel so inferior used to say 'Has the cat got your tongue.' and later tried to make a social butterfly out of me when it was all her fault I was painfully shy. Once in college when I had to make a short speech, and was terrified to do it, my speech teacher said...'There's nothing wrong with the way you speak, dear, you just never speak.' Whenever you feel shy try to mentally redirect some anger in your head. Tell you mother (in your mind) and feel ANGRY when you say it!...'Get out of my head' Call her any names you want...remember you are not hurting her or attacking her, but her disease, and it will help you heal. Ellie
From: Elnora Van Winkle> Date: Sat Feb 26, 2000 5:55am Subject: Re: Of Talk Therapy and Social Butterflies > Dear Ellie-- >
> You said: >
> >talk therapy doesn't work. >
> Yes! I always instinctively knew that it wasn't productive to talk to a therapist, so I only tried it once on my own, in my early 20's when I went to a "Problem Center" and got a nice young male therapist who was like a buddy to me when my live-in boyfriend was going out on me and I didn't know how to leave. Even then I knew that I didn't agree with the idea of therapy as idealized in America. Hated the idea of "transference" and didn't think that verbally sifting through one's garbage was going to make my problems get better. Also felt, and still feel, that talk therapy is letting an authority figure control you and does little to empower you. Shirley Perhaps I need to revise that. If therapists become post flood themselves and don't form "transferences", ie codependencies, with their patients, maybe expressing the anger and redirecting by talking would help. I think talking and writing are useful ways to express emotions and it's what we are doing on the list. One of the things Alice Miller pointed out to me when I told her I was sending this to psychiatrists was that they wouldn't be able to use it unless they were in touch with their own emotions. I understand that, and my sending it to psychiatrists has been more a way for me to confront their past abuse of me and others. Ellie >
> Also, you said that your mother--later tried to make a social butterfly out of me, -- even though she had made you shy in the first place. My mother let me know I wasn't attractive or marriageable from an early age (I had a crossed eye, flat chest, wide hips); I fell for it and became shy and introverted when I was young. She wanted me to be a cheerleader and later join a sorority. I wasn't buying it! ;-) Years later I healed myself of my low esteem related to my looks; in fact I'm surprised at how self-confident I feel most of the time despite the fact my mother has never said anything positive for the last 25 years about my appearance. I once lost a bit of weight that I had gained when I was in my 40's. I told my mother on the phone, thinking it was acceptable "girl talk." She turned it ugly real fast. "Well maybe now you'll get to work and get your 24 inch waist back." Oof!!! I'd been sucker punched again! I wondered for awhile after that when I had last had a 24 inch waist, till I realized my mother is sick and I'm okay with a 29 inch waist and wide hips. I'm healthy and have a great hour-glass shape. Even when I eat only raw food I'm a bit heavier- like Kate Winslet, and I like it. We're all beautiful in our own way, and it's wonderful to realize that. Shirley What a bitch! And my mother too. I once asked her if she loved my sister because my sister was pretty and I wasn't. My mother said. 'O you can make up for that by having a nice personality' My mother adored my sister, who was outgoing, and when my sister was reported missing on Cape Cod Bay at age 16, I thought 'maybe if she dies my mother will like me.' I misdirected my anger at my sister rather than at my mother. My sister did die, and I had to live with thinking it was my fault. And then my mother wanted me TO BE a replacement for my sister. She wanted me to 'come out' socially. To heal from all that I did a lot of redirecting to my mother. Ellie
(Feeling better tonight.) You are right. I still have work to do on those people around the music issue, otherwise I'd be out playing... again. I haven't done enough redirecting to finish it off. Tonight I kept getting up, in-between doing other things, and went to the padded door--my new spot--my husband was afraid the fridge would get dented- he's so funny). Over and over, I went to the door, padded with a down comforter, and pounded the hell out of that nasty, beady eyed, ugly, voodoo control freak who messed with my life-- Well anyway, I already know that I'll never know why that whole episode in my life happened, so there's no point speculating and I'm letting go of that. At any rate, I did a lot of two fisted punching and really felt like I was belting him right in the eyes. And yet on another level I know this is just for ME and I'm not really hurting anyone or being vindictive. But while I'm doing it I really get into the "act" and squash him to a pulp, practically killing him. But I'm not done! I know I need to do it more. I realize that now. It altered my life so profoundly that the least I owe it in return is a week long "intensive" of redirecting work. I've been too passive about this. Time to roll up my shirt sleeves and claim my psychic territory back. (I mean psychological - I'm not talking witchcraft.) And in-between, I'll throw in a few more punches for R, a tortured soul who weighs about 500 pounds biggest man I've met (R was a part of putting her down) I can't hate him too much; he's too sick. Also had some punches for Mom and Dad. Felt very angry at their "united front" they always presented together that "We are perfect and you are our problem." I feel a lot better today, but man, am I uncharacteristically TIRED all the time. Have been coming home and kind of just wanting to crawl in bed and sleep for hours, but I sit up in bed and kind of meditate instead. I suspect the great fatigue related to them "Muddy Basin Blues." Shirely Wonderful work. It's so important to include all past abusers in this work. I know you've done the major work of releasing and redirecting anger at your parents, but so many people were in our lives who behaved just like our parents, and we need to really blast them to regain our self esteem and creativity. As you know my field was research in biological psychiatry, and I had to do a lot of anger work at psychiatrists in the process of getting my theory published, and I continue to do it as I try to get recognized. And I get angry if people in authority who could help prisoners don't respond. I love these people and wish they would be on this list, but I hate the disease in them. Ellie Yüklə 5,47 Mb. Dostları ilə paylaş:
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