This file contains all the messages in the Yahoo group currently located at the link below. This will allow you to read through the messages off-line

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This file contains all the messages in the Yahoo group currently located at the link below. This will allow you to read through the messages off-line. Even reading these message off-line will be time consuming, but well worth the trouble. Ellie never got her book published, so this is all we have - as a way of learning more about the woman who discovered this amazing cure.

Part 1 - the complete forum archives (over a thousand messages)
Note: It was no small feat to remove the mangled formatting from all those messages. In many cases, this included paragraph marks at the end of each line, and those pesky >>> characters. Also, the text wrapping on many messages was completely hosed and had to be corrected.

You will notice that a few message numbers are missing. These were apparently removed by Ellie for various reasons. I also corrected obvious spelling errors. Some words were so mangled, I could not tell what they were supposed to be. For accuracy, those were left as is.

Part 2 - This part is some very lengthy text that was moved from some of the messages. They were moved to this section because they were very lengthy and repeated in more than one message. It made more sense to post them once at the end. An "archive note" was placed in each message where text was removed - explaining where the text could be found.

Part 1 (forum archives)

Message 4

From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Tue Aug 3, 1999 0:55am

Subject: C's testimonial

If anyone would like to read a long version of C's story, please e-mail me.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Thu Aug 5, 1999 6:00am

Subject: Improvement is subtle

One of you mentioned that feeling better is 'subtle.' I found this so true and I believe it is because 'normal' is not 'high.' During my several months of using the self-help measures I experienced mood swings, with 'highs' after an intense detox crisis and then depression. This 'high' is due to the sudden release of stored up excess noradrenaline. It is the same 'high' as from antidepressants. I recall thinking, ah, this is wonderful-- the way I should be, but not so. This is why when people recognize the detox crises (the excitatory symptoms) and release and redirect anger as often as possible, they are usually able to let go of the antidepressant. After a while the moods swings are less intense because there is less excess toxic noradrenaline that has to be released. Feeling better is when the mood swings are gone and there are neither highs nor lows. This is the way we were born, not to be 'high' but to be peaceful and with emotions aroused when appropriate.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Sun Aug 8, 1999 6:12am

Subject: Mad at God
V wrote:

> As a matter of fact, I had a cleansing today. You seem to have a catalytic effect on me, and after reading your recent letters last night I woke up in a rage about an e-mail list who had abused me when I first got online. So the first thing I did after letting the rage roll around inside of me was I got up and started writing them a letter. In my letter I was telling them I was now back on their list and how much they had hurt me and that if they tried to kick sand in my face again I had gone to the Charles Atlas school of net bashing and I was going to hurt them back. Then I started screaming at my father and taking the end of my ballpoint pen and jabbing it into the tablet I was writing on and stabbing "him." Then I wrote about my feelings. Then I started screaming at God who, frankly, I blame the most because He created it.

> I finally told God that I loved him, but I didn't trust Him one bit. I don't trust anyone not to hurt me, even inadvertently. Then I spent some time looking into the mirror and loving myself. It was quite a morning.
Dear V

I am in tears of joy reading this, not for your pain, but for your victory. It will help to heal you and bring you to the land of peace and joy where you will never allow anyone to hurt you again. Our notions of God are stored together with our notions of our parents, so when you are getting mad at God (that notion of God stored in our brains) you are releasing toxins and healing. The real God in my opinion is that nerve energy trying to get through--an angry God who wants us to have our anger at all past abusers, especially our parents, and heal. I still get mad at the real God sometimes and tell him to get his act together.


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Mon Aug 9, 1999 11:48am

Subject: finding quiet ways to release anger
From Fr.

Your description of how toxcicity is generated and purged is compelling.

Your references to Alice Miller, whose works I read early in my recovery, grabbed my attention. I have the perception that many people have trouble dealing with what she says, one reason perhaps why she's not referred to as often in recovery circles. I put her up there in the pantheon of humanity's heroes, along with Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, Lois, Ghandi, Norman Borlauge and others.
Re your theory of toxicosis: I sense that even if it were not scientifically accurate (and I have no idea one way or the other) it still might serve me as an effective model for working on my recovery. After I read your article a number of times I became even more sensitized than I was to episodes of anxiety or fearfulness - what you describe as periodic detoxification crises. However, it had been my theory that it was fear that stood behind the anger I would rarely encounter and that I should work on my fear (something I got a good start on at Caron). I am now however "trying on" the concept that it might be more useful to see things the other way around. I certainly am more in tune with episodes of fear and anxiety rather than anger, so I have more opportunities to work using those doors. But a lot of these opportunities to process occur in places like sitting here in the office or in other places where I can't really pound, yell or even talk quietly to myself. Where I could use some help is to learn about effective creative ways you and others have found to process such episodes in a safe appropriate way at such times. Thanks.
Dear Fr

The scientific evidence for the theory could fill a book. I'll be putting the original technical article on my site when it is published this fall. The fear is caused by excess toxic amounts of adrenaline that have clogged up neurons because we had to suppress our fight or flight response, and the fear is a sign of emerging anger, so it is about going through the fear and trying to release and redirect the anger at the onset of excitatory nervous symptoms.

Yes, is it difficult to do this all through the day at work, but those who have progressed the fastest have found ways to mentally redirect even quietly. I and others kept a rather persistent dialogue with parents and other early abusers. like fu fu prayers we call them. Whenever I felt guilt I would simple say in my head to my mother, Get out of my head. All of these mental exercises are ways to redirect the anger through the right neurons, so to speak, and this speeds the detox process. It is a detox of endogenous substances, much like a detox of drugs. Others take time to go out to the woods and yell at trees, or even pound on a parents grave--what ever time you have to do these things will help. Or yell in the shower, or while riding a bike. Another person just took a pen and jabbed it through some paper in her office. Once you get going with this, I think you will find your own ways. The mentally redirecting is more important than the pounding on the bed, although that helps a lot.
Caron was great. It was there that I learned the sculptures, and that is what I did in my mind, conjure up a sculpture. The two parts of this discovery that are so exciting and that speed the process are 1) It's not necessary to remember or re-experience all the childhood trauma. What's important is to have a list of all subsequent abusive relationships and to redirect anger to them all, teachers? doctors? clergy? bosses? and 2) Recognizing excitatory symptoms, especially fear, as signals of a detox crisis and releasing and redirecting during them speeds up the process.



The Biology of Emotions article is on:

From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Wed Aug 11, 1999 0:33pm

Subject: Brain Food
Cooking and processing food changes nutrients into some toxic substances that the body and brain cannot use. Some of these get into the hypothalamus, which is not protected by the blood brain barrier. This means these substances can clog up neurons, and if they do they may cause us not to feel anger when appropriate. Not feeling and releasing the anger could cause even more clogging of neurons, and symptoms could re-appear, probably not intense but some mild nervous symptoms. This is why I prefer raw food. I still get some headaches and fever probably from toxins in food or the environment. Also it's cooked fat that is the bad guy. Raw fat is very good for the brain. I eat raw animal fat, including raw egg yolks, but if you're not into that, it might be good not to overcook fat but include it in your diet. David Horrobin has also had good results the vegetable fat, like primrose oil.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:

To join the Depression-Anxiety list:

From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Thu Aug 12, 1999 0:45pm

Subject: Speed of recovery
Re: Speed of recovery. Becoming post-flood in a few months depends on how persistent one is in releasing and redirecting anger during excitatory nervous symptoms. Here is T's questionnaire. Notice the answer to the question of -- If you are not near a bed how often do you redirect anger.
Date of birth 9.9.1965

> Male

> Female - YES
> On what date did you begin the self-help measures in the article The Biology of Emotions 1.4.99 Note: this is European ie April 1, 00
> Do you pound on a bed and redirect anger while thinking of past abusers

once a day three times a day more often LESS OFTEN (once a week)

> If you are not near a bed do you mentally redirect anger toward abusers once a day three times a day more often ALL THE TIME
> Do you attend 12-step meetings. NO
> Do you attend Adult Children of Alcoholics. NO
> Do you use other self-help measures. NUTRITION AS IN THE ARTICLE
> Are you in therapy. YES
> Do you take antidepressants. NO
> Do you take tranquilizers. NO



> > When did you begin to notice the following most of the time:
> Anger when intense is easily redirected mentally toward past abusers. 15.5.99

> Feel 'high' after releasing anger, followed by depression or a drug-like sleep. AT ONCE 1.4.99

> Frequent headaches, sweating, or fever. 15.4.99

> Intense feelings of grief and crying. 1.5.99

> Pounded on the bed less often. 1.5.99

> Mood swings less intense and less often. 1.6.99

> Cry easily, but mostly for others. 1.5.99

> Laugh easily--enjoy comedy rather than violent movies or TV shows. ALWAYS HAVE

> Anger is not intense and is mostly about current situations. 20.6.99

> Have fewer resentments. 15.6.99

> Feel guilty less often. 15.4.99

> Feel friendly and interested in people, even strangers. 15.5.99

> Enjoy people but feel content alone. 1.6.99

> Feel a bit isolated in an unreal world. ALWAYS HAVE

> No longer think or act compulsively. 15.6.99

> Work and study efficiently, concentration and memory good. GETTING BETTER

> If plans don't work out, can find something else to do. 1.5.99

> Fall asleep more easily and no longer have a heavy drug-like sleep. 20.6.99

> Have fewer scary dreams. 20.6.99

> Can flash back to childhood events, even traumatic ones, without emotional pain. 20.6.99

> Have fewer needs and find life is simpler with less need for activity. 15.5.99

> Relationships with parents are smoother. THEY GET SCARCIER

> Posture is relaxed. 1.6.99

> Changed to a more natural diet. SLOWLY SETTING IN

> Have fewer colds and other acute disorders. NONE SINCE 1.4.99

> Stopped medication. DID NOT NEED ONE

> Stopped therapy. PLAN TO STOP IN JULY

> On what date would you say you identified with-not all-but most of these. ABOUT 15.6.99


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Sun Aug 15, 1999 6:36am

Subject: Sin
From T

I realized today at Church - as we were talking the other day on another list, sin could have meant ignorance in the first place - Sin is the Unspoken. The unspoken is what kills our souls. And Jesus said sin equals to death. And Speech is Healing. The Unspoken was what ripped off the meaning of the world, what made us feel alien, powerless, hopeless, helpless. Sin was Ignorance, and wisdom stems from the Word. Makes sense to me now what He meant. If you speak your truth and someone's there to listen, and if the people you meet on earth do this too, you end up a humane human being. Case closed. I feel reborn.


Thank you T, and we on this list have the courage to speak the truth, and Jesus spoke it in Matthew 10:35-36 when he said: "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother...And a man' foes shall be they of his own household." And this is what we have to do to recover, become at variance, not with the souls of our parents, but with their disease and have our justifiable anger, and redirect it toward them rather than toward ourselves in suicidal thought or toward others in aggressive action. And Jesus said "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear" and you and others have heard and Spoken as you say--Speech is Healing.

And also the New Testament word for sin is 'hamartia,' and archery term meaning 'to miss the mark' and when we misdirect anger...through the Wrong Neurons to ourselves or others we then sin, but the anger is justifiable, and we are INNOCENT. It is a physiological process that goes on unconsciously. The light is when we know that we can heal just by redirecting it. And I'll bet the truth is in all the spiritual literature, not just the Bible.
The Biology of Emotions article is on:

To join the Depression-Anxiety list:


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Mon Aug 16, 1999 1:18am

Subject: Innocence and Primals
Another thought about sin and innocence. One definition of innocence is 'not knowing' or 'unawareness'. How true about misdirected anger-- it is an unconscious process and no wonder people have no remorse--the anger is justifiable even if misdirected. Jesus said 'forgive them, they know not what they do' and no wonder God put a mark on Cain that no one should harm him.
John Speyrer has kindly put some of your testimonials on the Primal Psychotherapy Page

There is a wealth of information on this page. A primal is a detox crisis and the most healing primals or detox crises are those during which anger is redirected. If you think about the primal scream--a scream is the first angry communication of a newborn child and a part of the God given fight or flight reaction. It is the suppression of this response that is the cause of our emotional pain. I was listening to the Dionne quintuplets (if you are old enough to remember them), who were isolated from the world and abused as children. A reporter asked them, "What was it like when they finally let you out into society?": One of them replied. "We didn't know how to defend ourselves"
Another good site is Aletha Solter's, if you have young children. Her book Tears and Tantrums is a great source of help.


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Mon Aug 16, 1999 1:27am

Subject: Innocence
How true about misdirected anger-- it is an unconscious process and no wonder people have no remorse--the anger is justifiable even if misdirected. Jesus said 'forgive them, they know not what they do' and no wonder God put a mark on Cain that no one should harm him.
I keep forgetting to add that this doesn't mean we shouldn't have our anger at the perpetrators. I was very distraught hearing that some religious leaders went into Oklahoma City and told people to 'forgive' before they could have their justifiable anger.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:

To join the Depression-Anxiety list:

From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Wed Aug 18, 1999 4:23am

Subject: Cindy and exercise
Ellie-It is time for an update from me. I have continued to mentally redirect and connect the "bad" feelings (includes any feelings of becoming small, vulnerable, feeling less than, feeling abandoned, alone, stupid or ugly-- to name a few of my common demons) as soon as I recognize their presence--which is pretty much within seconds to minutes only. Since I usually feel "small" around other people I do this mentally even in meetings at work. It levels out my low mood within minutes of doing it so that I am once again able to be in the present and pay attention to what is happening in the now. My lingering depression which lasted for almost a yr. is pretty much lifted. I still have feelings of inadequacy. Where they are due to a lack in education I am taking classes. When they are a result of old messages and abuse I redirect as soon as they get my attn. It works!! It seems like such a simple thing now that I have gotten into the "habit"--and I am feeling so much better. the beating on the bed didn't work for me. Instead I am in a cycling class with pumping, aggressive, outrageous music and as I am cycling like a madwoman I am imagining my strength at decimating my tormentors. It is very physical and I feel so released. Their faces appear less and less. As for the diet, I eat any and everything in moderation and am curious if I will actually want to eat processed foods less. My cravings seem to fluctuate more with my hormones than anything else. I don't pray or believe in god. My best to you Ellie and your wonderful messages. Love

My opinion about God is that he/she doesn't need to us to believe in him, he believes in us and IS us. In fact I think the Hindus were right when they said of the big bang, that, 'God created matter out of himself.' We are God. Thanks for the exercise tip. I hope this will be a useful means for people in prisons. I find am not attracted to processed food. In fact I recently made the mistake of trying some cheese made from raw milk, and I'm now having detox symptoms, slight fever and headaches. I find cooked and processed foods, and milk products toxic for me.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:

To join the Depression-Anxiety list:


From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Wed Aug 18, 1999 4:25am

Subject: The Flood
>From Frank,
> Dear Ellie,

> I am just gradually learning how useful this tool can be as well. Last week, I set aside the entire week, just to work on some issues and get out some anger. I not only found my repressed anger against my mom, but worked at it so effectively, I really understand where the term "flood" comes from. I mean, I was RAGING MAD. I had to stop every other minute because I was out of breath, and then went at it again until I could find no more anger or I was so tired I simply could not continue. I have sores cuts and blisters on my hands from all the beating I did. And you now, yesterday I couldn't find any more anger. The emotions were still lingering a little, but the anger was simply gone. I think I have at least some anger left that I will get out little by little, but by and large, there really came forth a flood. I still have to see whether all this raging did me any good, but I suspect it did. I will find out in the next one or two weeks...

Love, F
Yes, the flood analogy is physiologically accurate, and when the major flood was gone, I found during the muddy basin period of about a year, anger continued to come out as you say "little by little"--some anger related to early abusers was mixed in with anger in current interactions. Now when someone makes me angry, it is mild and there is no anger related to my parents or other earlier abusers.

The Biology of Emotions article is on:

To join the Depression-Anxiety list:

From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Wed Aug 18, 1999 4:36am

Subject: Patsy, day 4
Dear Ellie,

It's going to be another short one tonight, I seem to have exhausted myself with all the emotions that have come up. I do however feel it necessary to write to you tonight. It's my hope that my necessity to write to you will not be misinterpreted as me being dependent on you. I saw where you have posted me, and have assigned me the ghost name of patsy... I'm a huge patsy cline fan... I thank the God that brought you and your information into my life....

You cannot possibly get dependent on me. In my opinion you are getting dependent on God (becoming God) who is healing you.



From: Elnora Van Winkle

Date: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:02am

Subject: Lonely?
I spent over 60 years in relationships, either living with someone or married, and was desperately lonely. Since post-flood and for the first time, I've been living alone and NEVER feel lonely--not to say it is best to live alone, but if this is what happens for some of us, there will be no loneliness.


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