From: ArtSheehan . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/15/2006 10:33:00 PM
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The statement in message 3059 regarding Traditions 2 and 9 is
incorrect.
The long form of the second Tradition never contained any mention of
"Our leaders are but trusted servants - they do not govern." Also
the
initial version of the long form of Tradition 9 did not contain the
term "they do not govern."
The April 1946 Grapevine contained an article by Bill W titled "Twelve
Suggested Points for AA Tradition" (re "Language of the
Heart" pgs
20-24). The article provided AA with the initial version of the "long
form" of the Traditions. A December 1947 pamphlet titled "AA
Tradition" also contained the same wording.
Both the short and long form of the Traditions have undergone changes
from their original wording. Pinning down the dates when these changes
occurred is no trivial matter (and a bit exasperating to find source
reference details).
The original long form of Tradition 9 contained the ending statement
"All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service,
for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the
whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. Universal
respect is the key to their usefulness." This was later changed to add
"they do not govern" after " ... authority from their
titles."
The November 1949 Grapevine contained the initial version of the
"short form" of the Traditions (re "Language of the
Heart" article "A
Suggestion for Thanksgiving" pgs 95-96). The November 1949 Grapevine
issue was dedicated to the Traditions in preparation for the
forthcoming Cleveland Convention in 1950. The wording of the second
Tradition was expanded to include the sentence "Our leaders are but
trusted servants - they do not govern." (Note: "AA Comes of
Age" pg
213, states that the short form was drafted in "1947 or
thereabouts"-
it was more likely early 1949).
What caused this addition to the short form of Tradition 2 (and later
addition to the long form of Tradition 9)? I can only surmise. From
1946 on, after the first publication of the Traditions, there was
friction (it grew to be rather intense) between Bill W and the
Alcoholic Foundation Board Trustees regarding Bill's ideas for
establishment of the General Service Conference (re "AA Comes of
Age"
pgs 208-214). Dr Bob was not very keen on the idea either. The
appearance of the "Our leaders are but trusted servants ..."
sentence
in the short form may well have been a product of the friction but I
cannot confirm it with a direct source reference.
Two wording changes were subsequently made to the November 1949
version of the short form of the Traditions: "primary spiritual
aim"
was changed to "primary purpose" in Tradition 6, and
"principles above
personalities" was changed to "principles before
personalities" in
Tradition 12. However, the November 1949 wording of the short form of
the Traditions was adopted and adapted by Al-Anon Family Groups in
September 1952 (re "Lois Remembers" pgs .177-178).
The Traditions were approved at AA's 15th anniversary and 1st
International Convention which took place at Cleveland, OH from July
28-30, 1950. Bill W chronicled the proceedings in a September 1950
Grapevine article titled "We Came of Age" (re "The Language
of the
Heart" pgs 117-124 also "AA Comes of Age" pg 213). The
Traditions
meeting was held in the Cleveland Music Hall. Bill W was asked to sum
up the Traditions for the attendees. He did not recite either the long
or short form. Instead, he paraphrased a variation of the long form.
Following Bill's summation, the attendees adopted the 12 Traditions
unanimously by standing vote.
I cannot as yet determine the specific points in time when the wording
changes to the short and long form of Traditions took place. I believe
it occurred with the publication of the 12and12 in 1953 but I need
access to a first printing 12and12 to confirm it.
If anyone can tell me the if the wording of Traditions 6 and 12 in a
first printing 12and12 is the same as they are today I'd be most
grateful. If that's the case, then today's wording (short and long
form) of the Traditions was Conference-approved in 1953 with the
publication of the 12and12.
The version of the long form of the Traditions as we know them today
appeared in an appendix to the second edition Big Book printed in
1955. One oddity, previously mentioned in the AAHL forum, was that the
2nd edition Big Book Traditions appendix initially contained the
wording of the short form as they were printed in the Grapevine in
November 1949. There has been no subsequent posting as yet to AAHL
saying in what printing the appendix was changed to reflect the short
form version as worded today.
One final bit of information - a number of members erroneously believe
that Tradition 3 once contained the word "honest" and that it was
removed from the Tradition by the Conference. It's not true. The word
"honest" never appeared in either the long or short form of
Tradition
3. The term comes from the Foreword to the first edition Big Book and
was later included in the initial version of the AA Preamble in the
June 1947 Grapevine. It was the AA Preamble that was changed by the
Conference in 1958 to remove the word "honest." The way the
Conference
Advisory Action was framed can give the erroneous impression that
Tradition 3 was changed.
Cheers
Arthur
-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimball
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:58 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] Second Tradition (long and short)
At one time the long and short versions of the 2nd tradition were the
same. Then it was decided that since the words "Our leaders are but
trusted servants, they do not govern" was redundant with the long form
of tradition 9, that the phrase be dropped from the long form of
tradition 2.
----- Original Message -----
From: HJFree
Subject: Second Tradition (long and short)
Why is the "short version" of Tradition 2, longer than the long
form?
Yahoo! Groups Links
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++++Message 3068. . . . . . . . . . . . AA Corporations?
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:30:00 PM
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Hi all: help needed on below:
//The following are all CORPORATIONS: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services,
Inc.;
the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous, Inc.; and the Alcoholics
Anonymous Grapevine, Inc. They are service organizations and corporations
whose purpose and existence is to serve the Fellowship. In effect, they are
temporary, albeit long-lived, committees which could all be thrown away and
Alcoholics Anonymous would still exist. Historically speaking, what group or
body of AA members had the authority to form these three corporations? How
would they have to be called together if they ever wished to vote on
dismantling
or discarding these corporations? Is provision made for dismantling and
discarding any of these corporations in the Twelve Concepts, and who is
given
the power to take this action in the Twelve Concepts?/
Thanks, servus, Charlie B.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at
comcast.net)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3069. . . . . . . . . . . . The only AA censure motion?
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:33:00 PM
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Hi all: more help needed:
//In the Advisory Actions of the General Service Conference of A.A.,
1951-2004
edition, p. 147, we read that in 1995 a recommendation that "the
proposal to
censure the General Service Board" was "dismissed.
(Trustees)." the censure
motion was signed by 10 GSC Delegates. What was the background for this
censure
move? Was this censure motion a reaction to the change in the Charter on
Article 2?//
thanks all, servus, Charlie B.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." = (bishopbk at
comcast.net)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3070. . . . . . . . . . . . AAWS legal attacks
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:41:00 PM
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//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk
at comcast.net)
We went through a period a few years back when AAWS was going after anyone
who
used the circle and triangle logo, and trying to sue them for trademark
infringement. This was defeated in the courts. One of the reasons was that
circle and triangle logos had been used for years by all sorts of
organizations,
including some prohibitionist organizations in the period before AA came
along.
This has all been discussed in detail in past messages in the
AAHistoryLovers.
Recently I have had items (old books and pamphlets and memorabilia) which I
had
put up for sale on eBay removed because of protests made to eBay by AAWS,
simply
on the grounds that "AA" or "Alcoholics Anonymous"
showed up somewhere on the
item, as part of a book title or somewhere on the item. Has anyone else had
items removed by eBay because of AAWS complaints? Please call or email me
directly if you have had this happen to you:
"Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at
comcast.net) phone
304.242.2937
I am trying to assemble enough material to work out a history of how this
issue
has developed in AA.
Also, what information can the members of the group give me on cases where
an
internet website or AA chat room has been threatened or removed by AAWS?
What
is the history of this issue? Although the Big Book concordance issue seems
to
be dead now, and is no longer being fought over, some of the earlier attacks
by
AAWS were on concordances to the Big Book which were posted online, on the
grounds apparently of supposed copyright infringement.
Historically speaking, have there been issues other than claims of copyright
infringement involved in any of these attacks on websites and chat rooms?
Again, if you would call or email me directly, this would help me in writing
the
historical article I am working on.
"Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk at
comcast.net) phone
304.242.2937//
Thanks all, servus, Charlie B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3071. . . . . . . . . . . . An AA apology?
From: Charlie Bishop Jr. . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:36:00 PM
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Hi again...more help needed...
//From "Charlie Bishop Jr." (bishopbk
at comcast.net)
A few years ago, a group called IWS published the Big Book in paperback for
sale in the U.S. and Canada and elsewhere, so that for a while there were
two
different editions of the Big Book available in print in English, one
published
by IWS and the other published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services. AAWS
objected and in a settlement between AAWS and IWS, AAWS agreed to apologize
to
every AA group in the world for its harassment of IWS, Inc. That AAWS
apology
was published in Box 4-5-9 and in the 1995 Final Report of the General
Service
Conference. Could someone email me a copy of either the Box 4-5-9 or 1995
GSC
Final Report apologies or both? Thanks.
My email address is (bishopbk at comcast.net)
Also, is anyone aware of a Regional Forum that discussed
"lawsuits" in A.A.?//
Again thanks, servus, Charlie B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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++++Message 3072. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Green Pond, NJ
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:25:00 AM
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Hi,
Yes, From my transcriptions of Lois diary the reference to Horace C.
was a reference to Horace Chystal or "Chrys" as Lois refered to
him.
After living with the Parkhursts for a short time immediately after
leaving 182 Bill and Lois moved to the Greenpond bungalow. Although
Lois' diary made reference to "leaving Greenpond for good" keep in
mind that this was an unedited diary without the option of seeing into
future events. This bungalow was used many times over the next several
years by Bill and Lois, more than any other place. Lois did not know
she'd be returning when she wrote this first diary entry.
As of the early 1990's the bungalow was still there according to a
resident who spent considerable time tracking it down.
This is the most discussion I've seen to date regarding the Green Pond
bungalow. I have enough of a visual retention of the 20 or so photos I
once had to be able to identify it. Homes back then didn't all look
the same and the number of older homes in Greenpond was supposedly not
large.
Please advise,
-merton
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, ny-aa@a... wrote:
>
> The question about Green Pond, NJ, had to do with the place Bill W
> and Lois lived after they were forced out of 182 Clinton Street
> without even enough money to pay for a moving van. It started their
> period of "living around." Late April or early May 1939,
Horace C
> loaned them his summer cottage (also referred to as a bungalow).
> It got too cold that fall and they moved on.
>
> "Pass it On" 215 ff
> "Lois Remembers" 125
>
> It is likely that Horace C is the Horace Crystal who was involved
> early in the writing of the Big Book. It is unlikely that such a
> cottage would have survived this long. Still, the person who asked
> might be able to find property or tax or other records for a Horace
> Crystal in Green Pond, New Jersey.
>
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++++Message 3073. . . . . . . . . . . . 100 Hundred Men and Women?
From: James Flynn . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 6:04:00 PM
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I would like to know why the preface to the first edition to the BB makes a
statement about 100 men and women, when there are only approximately 40
stories
in the BB and by some accounts that I have read a maximum of 70 members in
AA at
the time the book was published.
Sincerely, Jim F.
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++++Message 3074. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: Henrietta Seiberling''s Children
From: greatcir@comcast.net> . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/17/2006 5:32:00 PM
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On my visit to the Gate House in Akron last June I recall a framed printing
in
the small library where Bill first met with Dr. Bob.
I think it says Henrietta's two daughters were home at the time and recalled
a
tall thin man with big feet who reminded them of a movie star when Bill came
to
meet and talk to Dr. Bob.
As I had heard Smitty (Dr. Bob's son) talk about being the last person alive
who
was present when AA was formed, I asked the docent if the daughters were
still
alive and she thought one was but she was not sure. The house is so small
it's
had to imagine that Smitty and the girls did not play or talk with each
other
while Bill and Bob had their infamous discussion thus it would seem Smitty
knew
they were "present" too? Smitty and the two girls were probably
close in age?
Pete Kopcsak
_______________________________
From the moderator:
Is it possible that this is partly a dispute over definitions? Are we
talking
about the first time that Bill W. and Dr. Bob ever met, or are we talking
about
the long period which followed that initial meeting, during which Bill
stayed
with Dr. Bob and Anne, and they talked for hours every day about how to use
this
new spiritual method for working with alcoholics?
The phrase "when AA was formed" could mean all sorts of things,
depending on how
you defined it and what perspective you were looking from: (1) the first
time
Bill W. and Dr. Bob met, (2) the period when Bill W. and Dr. Bob spent weeks
at
Dr. Bob and Anne's house figuring out how they were going to put this
program
together, (3) Dr. Bob's last drink after which he stayed sober to the end of
his
life (celebrated at Founders Day), (4) the point when they brought Bill D.
into
the program (which showed that they could teach it to other alcoholics),(5)
the
time when AA split from the Oxford Group, (6) the date and place where the
first
meeting was held which was called an "Alcoholics Anonymous
meeting" (where
Clarence Snyder insisted that he was the one who did that in Cleveland), (7)
the
point when "Alcoholics Anonymous" was chosen as the title of the
book they were
writing, or (8) from an Akron perspective, the period when the early Akron
AA
people were dropping by Dr. Bob and Anne's house every day and using that as
their center for regular fellowship (the period when a number of the famous
founders of AA in various places in the upper midwest were getting sober
there).
All that to one side, if any of Henrietta's surviving children were actually
there at the time of Bill W. and Dr. Bob's first meeting, their memories of
that
evening would be extremely valuable to record.
Glenn Chesnut (South Bend, Indiana, USA)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mel Barger"
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:25 PM
Subject: Henrietta Seiberling's Children
Hi All,
As far as I know, all three of Henrietta's children are still living. One
daughter was Dorothy, whom I met and interviewed in New York City. The other
daughter lived near Philadelphia, but I can't recall her name. The son,
former
Congressman John Seiberling, lives in Akron and still takes an interest in
AA.
I did meet him and he told me he was in boarding school when Bill and Bob
met.
I don't know if the girls were home or not. I seem to recall that Dorothy
attended one of the elite women's colleges (maybe Wellesley), but she would
have
been too young for that in 1935. She now lives on the northern tip of Long
Island.
Mel Barger
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++++Message 3075. . . . . . . . . . . . Re: "Bill formally divorced AA in
1955"
From: mertonmm3 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1/18/2006 4:51:00 AM
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--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Jim"
wrote:
>
It was a reference to the handing over of AA from the co-founders to
the fellowship and the backdrop for the Convention and the term, "AA
Comes of Age". I didn't mean to convey that he abandoned AA at any
time. Perhaps "divorced" was too strong a term and therefore I
stand
corrected. Instead, "he gave himself the space to approach the disease
from angles which were precluded to AA by Tradition" would be a more
accurate statement. (Step 10).
Thank you for pointing this out.
-merton
------------------------------------------------------------
> "... Bill formally divorced AA in 1955."
>
> This is erroneous information. Bill was involved in AA at many and
> various levels until he died. He was writing for the AA Grapevine
> until 1970. He died in January 1971.
>
> The following articles were written in December 1955 and December
> 1970, respectively.
>
> _____________________________
>
> The Finest Gift of All
> Christmas, 1955
> Volume 12 Issue 7
> December 1955
>
> EACH of us in AA has received the gift of sobriety. All of us have
> found a new usefulness and most of us have found great happiness. This
> adds up to the gift of life itself--a new life of wondrous possibility.
>
> What then are we going to do with this great gift of life?
>
> Because our experience has taught us, we are quite sure that we know.
> We shall try to share with every fellow sufferer all that has been so
> freely given us. We shall try to carry AA's message to those who need
> and want it, wherever in the world they may be. We shall daily
> re-dedicate ourselves to the God-given truth that "It is by
> self-forgetting that one finds; it is by giving that one
receives."
>
> For us of AA, this is the Spirit of Christmas. This is the finest gift
> of all.
>
> Lois joins me in our warmest greetings. May the New Year of 1956 be
> the greatest time of giving and of receiving that we in AA have ever
> known.
>
> Bill W.
>
> Copyright (c) The AA Grapevine, Inc. (December 1955). Reprinted with
> permission.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Christmas Message
> Volume 27 Issue 7
> December 1970
>
> GRATITUDE is just about the finest attribute we can have, and how
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